post-Trib, Pre-mill RAPTURE

[BobRyan]

TWO definitions for "second coming"
1. Jesus "comes again" John 14:1-3 at His "appearing" to rapture the saints to heaven.

2. Jesus "comes to Earth to reign" - in Rev 21 (and is implied in portions of Rev 20 after the 1000 years)

One flawed definition for second coming
1. Jesus comes to rule over sinners and saints for a few years.

1000 year millennium

Only Rev 20 contains explicit reference to the future 1000 year millennium AND contains a continuation of the events discussed in Rev 19 - at Christ's appearing in the sky with the armies of heaven.

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In Rev 19 and 20 we can see that the appearing of Christ, resurrection of the saints, destruction of the wicked - takes place pre-mill.

In 1 Thess 4:13-18 we see that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are raptured - to heaven.

In John 13:36 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.”

In John 14:1-3 we see that Jesus "comes gain" to take the saints to His Father's house.
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be

John 17:11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are.

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


Post-Trib Rapture

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

 

[BobRyan]

Why does all this matter? -

Because there is only ONE scenario were "NOT knowing what the Bible teaches" about the future appearing of Christ, rapture, millennium, second-coming-to-Earth sequence would even "matter at all" - if you were not aware of it.

In ALL the other scenarios those details are "a nice-to-know" - but not a "must know".

==================

By contrast -

The Bible teaches a post-trib pre-mill RAPTURE and a post-Mill Second Coming where there is the resurrection of all the wicked who are then judged destroyed in the lake of fire.

Literal Millennium
Literal Rapture in 1Thess 4:13-18 at the Rev 19 "appearing" of Christ.
Literal time of 1000 years in heaven with Jesus - for the saints.
Literal desolate Earth left here in Rev 19 and in Jeremiah 4

 

[BobRyan]

"It is nice-to know" how fast the jetliner is traveling while you are riding in one - but it is not "a must know". Is it 550MPH or is it 610 mph? - interesting to know but not essential to know.

But knowing which gate it departs from is a "must know"

Matt 24 warns us about 'fake" returns of Christ and says we should not fall for it. There is a reason for that warning other than simply being "mistaken" or "looking foolish'.

Something "deceives the whole world" according to Rev 12 and 13 right at the end of time when it comes to the "mark of the beast subject". Matt 24 says that one of the key end time deceptions is about a fake return of Christ.

Matt 24:
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.

 

[BobRyan]

Post-trib, Pre-Mill RAPTURE in Rev 19-20 leaves all mankind - ended because the saints are raptured to heaven and the wicked are destroyed.

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As for all mankind wiped out in Rev 19

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones, "the rest") those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Rev 19- fits perfectly with Jeremiah 4

Jer 4:
¨23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
¨24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
¨25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
¨26 …all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

¨Jer 25:33
¨“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Which also agrees with 2 Thess 1
2 Thess 1: 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints

 

[BobRyan]

All unbelievers/unsaved are slain at the appearing of Christ

2 Thess 1:
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

All unbelievers/unsaved are slain at the appearing of Christ

Nope, not all. Some are chosen to be ruled over:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.


It's hard to rule over people if all are dead. In Rev 19 he comes to destroy their armies, then he can rule over his enemies (the civilians who were not in the beast's military at Armageddon) with a rod of iron.



Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



In Daniel 7 the main beast is judged and cast into fire, but other beasts have their lives prolonged...these are unsaved nations who were a part of the 4th beast in Daniel but they aren't killed but allowed to live longer. We see the same in Rev 2 and 20 concerning the unsaved nations who also served the Rev 13 beasts, and both of those beasts are destroyed by fire just as we see in Daniel 7 and just like we saw there, beast nations or unsaved nations are allowed to survive and live on to be ruled with a rod of iron for a thousand years...their lives prolonged. It must be the same nations and people's in Daniel 7 and Rev 2 and 20 who do survive the second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite(AORIST tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule(FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth(PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming and slaying. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

 

[BobRyan]

Post-trib, Pre-Mill RAPTURE in Rev 19-20 leaves all mankind - ended because the saints are raptured to heaven and the wicked are destroyed.

============================

As for all mankind wiped out in Rev 19

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones, "the rest") those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Rev 19- fits perfectly with Jeremiah 4

Jer 4:
¨23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
¨24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
¨25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
¨26 …all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

¨Jer 25:33
¨“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Nope, not all. Some are chosen to be ruled over:
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. .

Your argument seems to be that if we are careful not to look at the texts I gave about a whole planet with not one single human on it - only destroyed cities and dead bodies that are not buried... then we could have a different "conclusion"...--- is certainly possible given those restrictions.

But what about looking at the texts?

 

[BobRyan]

O.T. texts that speak of God ruling over the wicked from Israel are in the context of Israel having two possible futures - as Moses pointed out in Deuteronomy.

 

[ewq1938]

Your argument seems to be that if we are careful not to look at the texts I gave about a whole planet with not one single human on it - only destroyed cities and dead bodies that are not buried... then we could have a different "conclusion"...--- is certainly possible given those restrictions.

But what about looking at the texts?

There was only one passage that spoke of "no man" but it was not a global statement. I agree with Gill:

Jeremiah 4:25
And I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,.... No people dwelling in it, as the Targum; the land was without inhabitants, they were either killed with the sword, or taken and carried captive into Babylon, or fled into Egypt and other countries:


This also is not a second coming reference because of this:

Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

All cities are not destroyed at the second coming. Jerusalem still exists past the second coming.

There are far more scripture that promises people will be ruled over by Christ and his saints and Revelation 5 says that rule is upon the Earth.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Nope, not all. Some are chosen to be ruled over:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.


It's hard to rule over people if all are dead. In Rev 19 he comes to destroy their armies, then he can rule over his enemies (the civilians who were not in the beast's military at Armageddon) with a rod of iron.



Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



In Daniel 7 the main beast is judged and cast into fire, but other beasts have their lives prolonged...these are unsaved nations who were a part of the 4th beast in Daniel but they aren't killed but allowed to live longer. We see the same in Rev 2 and 20 concerning the unsaved nations who also served the Rev 13 beasts, and both of those beasts are destroyed by fire just as we see in Daniel 7 and just like we saw there, beast nations or unsaved nations are allowed to survive and live on to be ruled with a rod of iron for a thousand years...their lives prolonged. It must be the same nations and people's in Daniel 7 and Rev 2 and 20 who do survive the second coming.

The word "rule" means "shepherd." Christ will shepherd over the nations at the end. He will shepherd over the sheep and goats and will separate them. That is what the word rendered reign/rule in the KJV actually means in the original Greek. There is nowhere in Scripture that says that He will rule over them with the rod of iron for 1000 years. That is a Premil invention.

You are missing the crucial point. Poimaino only shows us that Christ is going to divide at the end between the sheep and the goats like a Shepherd. You avoid the key destructive detail contained in the Greek and Hebrew words that show the destruction of the nations. For example: The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should (patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous) smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.

 

[sandman]

Why does all this matter? -

Because there is only ONE scenario were "NOT knowing what the Bible teaches" about the future appearing of Christ, rapture, millennium, second-coming-to-Earth sequence would even "matter at all" - if you were not aware of it.

In ALL the other scenarios those details are "a nice-to-know" - but not a "must know".

I am still trying to figure out how or which one is concerning to us …

I know that sounds dismissive in a way ….but if we walk our walks as directed by the truth …..and whether we die or live ….what’s going to happen is going to happen ….and it’s not dependent nor contingent upon our walks in Christ Jesus…..

I firmly believe Christ returns for the church of the body first ….but, if I am wrong and the tribulation is first …Nothing I believe or do …(nor those who believe in the tribulation first) …will or should affect our walks as we have been called.

Does that make sense or am I missing something?

 

[BobRyan]

There was only one passage that spoke of "no man" but it was not a global statement. .

Rev 19- fits perfectly with Jeremiah 4

Jer 4:
¨23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
¨24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
¨25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
¨26 …all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

¨Jer 25:33
¨“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

those are all global statements in both Jer 4 and Jer 25

Gen 1. Earth "formless and void"... Jer 4 Earth "formless and void"
Jer 4 "mountains" "Hills" , "birds of the heavens",
Jer 25 "from one end of the Earth to the other"

 

[BobRyan]

I know that sounds dismissive in a way ….but if we walk our walks as directed by the truth …..and whether we die or live ….what’s going to happen is going to happen ….and it’s not dependent nor contingent upon our walks in Christ Jesus…..

The one who said that in Genesis 7 instead of walking as far as it would take to reach the location of the ark... drowned.

The one who said that in the days of John the baptizer instead of doing all the work to determine that the "carpenter from Nazareth was really God in human flesh no matter what orthodox church leadership said to the contrary" - rejected the Gospel, lost salvation.

Following Christ has always meant looking at the details in scripture to avoid the crisis in the future that He warns about.

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By contrast - if you look at "all the OTHER" scenarios that have been proposed -- nothing at all is a "consequence" for "not figuring out their details".

In all the other models - not knowing is like riding on a bus and then finding out that the driver knows a faster way to get to the destination than you - much to your surprise - just relax and enjoy the ride because there was no real reason to inform you about anything ahead of time when it comes to that detail.

 

[chad kincham]

The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach an unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on,and from, the throne of David in Jerusalem.


In Acts 2 Jesus literally ascends bodily and visibly from Mount Olive, and the angel said this same Jesus will return in like manner as you have seen Him leave - meaning His literal return bodily and visibly back to Mount Olive.


In Zechariah 14:5 Jesus returns to Mount Olive with all the saints with Him - where He then remains, and the nations such as Egypt come into the gates of Jerusalem to worship Jesus, Zechariah14:16-19, who will be literally and bodily sitting on the throne of David, forever.


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the THRONE of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon shall beblessed, and the THRONE of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.


Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”


In Revelation 21, The New Jerusalem which is above, descends to earth to old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it with men forever, and Jesus says this about that city in Revelation 3:12:


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


It’s Literal fact in scripture that there will be a unending literal and physical reign of Christ on the earth, and not just for a thousand years.

 

[BobRyan]

The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach an unending kingdom on the earth

True... but "when"? that is the sometimes illusive issue here.

Rev 20 and 21 says it happens after the 1000 years are completed

 

[chad kincham]

Nope, not all. Some are chosen to be ruled over:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.


It's hard to rule over people if all are dead. In Rev 19 he comes to destroy their armies, then he can rule over his enemies (the civilians who were not in the beast's military at Armageddon) with a rod of iron.



Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



In Daniel 7 the main beast is judged and cast into fire, but other beasts have their lives prolonged...these are unsaved nations who were a part of the 4th beast in Daniel but they aren't killed but allowed to live longer. We see the same in Rev 2 and 20 concerning the unsaved nations who also served the Rev 13 beasts, and both of those beasts are destroyed by fire just as we see in Daniel 7 and just like we saw there, beast nations or unsaved nations are allowed to survive and live on to be ruled with a rod of iron for a thousand years...their lives prolonged. It must be the same nations and people's in Daniel 7 and Rev 2 and 20 who do survive the second coming.

In Matthew 25 Jesus returns in verse 13 and then judges the nations in verse 31.

This judgment determines who is allowed to be in His millennial kingdom.

 

[BobRyan]

In Matthew 25 Jesus returns in verse 13 and then judges the nations in verse 31.

This judgment determines who is allowed to be in His millennial kingdom.

Matt 25 like 2 Peter 3 collapses everything into one day. But 2 Peter 3 reminds us that that "day" is in fact a 1000 years.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 19- fits perfectly with Jeremiah 4

It doesn't because Revelation 19 only shows one army and it's leaders being killed. There is no global slaughter nor are all cities destroyed.

 

[sandman]

The one who said that in the days of John the baptizer instead of doing all the work to determine that the "carpenter from Nazareth was really God in human flesh no matter what orthodox church leadership said to the contrary" - rejected the Gospel, lost salvation.

That I understand ....but that was a decision of their heart ....to accept or reject, just as todays salvation is.
But what I am saying is...Christ is returning, no matter what or when you or I believe regarding the timeline. But whatever the timeline is .... we have is the Hope of the return to keep us going. Our walks in Christ Jesus are not contingent, nor are they based upon when. Becasue there is nothing we can do to innate, expedite, or delay the return...It's not a decision of our hearts ...It's God's decision ...It's going to happen no matter what we believe.... we have no control over God's decision ....as to when Christ returns.....But we do have control over how we determine our walks.
I am not saying your original post is irrelevant ....it is ....It's the God breathed Word and we should study and know it, but it's knowledge that will not change the outcome of when Christ returns, regardless of whether we adhere to post trib or pre trib.

Following Christ has always meant looking at the details in scripture to avoid the crisis in the future that He warns about.

If we are walking by the spirit (as we have been directed to in the epistles) then we are doing what we have been called to do. We have control over over how we walk ...Crisis will arise...things will occur, but if we walk by the spirit in the light ...we will not be overtaken ....greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.