Was the fall necessary and pre-ordained?

[timothyu]

Do you think God told us anything about Himself in His word?

You mean like...
Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[renniks]

Knowledge prior to existence is causative. I.e., if God, before He creates anything, knows exactly what everyone will do, it's either because He is causing it, or he's tapping into another source that's causing it.

Lol, he's God. He knows because of that not because he causes everything. Your theory makes him like a human. I can know the future I intend to cause.

 

[timothyu]

Why need He know the future when He is the future?

 

[renniks]

Arminianism" believes there's another causative force, and God just looks at the future through a crystal ball of some sort.

Not at all. He knows because of his attributes. No other source needed.

 

[renniks]

You're putting a line between two concepts that doesn't exist. If I'm on a billiards table (and assuming I'm incredibly skilled and never miss), I hit the cue ball in a particular direction, knowing that it will hit the 8-ball into the corner pocket.

In your logic, you are saying that I didn't cause the 8-ball to go into the corner pocket, because I only hit the cue-ball, even though I had the knowledge ahead of time that it would subsequently knock the 8-ball into the corner pocket.

You are assuming God has to cause everything for it to happen. This is calvinist thinking. We are all little causes. God can know what we will do because time doesn't bind him. That doesn't make him the only cause.
Libertarian free will means you and nothing else can cause certain events. They don't have to be determined by God.

 

[Derf]

Lol, he's God. He knows because of that not because he causes everything. Your theory makes him like a human. I can know the future I intend to cause.

So you know what God is like by your definition of God?

 

[Derf]

Not at all. He knows because of his attributes. No other source needed.

Like I said, “a crystal ball of some sort”

 

[SuperCow]

Why do people think God thinks or acts in a way any human can comprehend.. How vain of us to even consider we can reverse engineer Him.

God made us with the desire to continually understand what we do not know. The earth, the sky, the sea, the galaxy, the universe, and yes, God. That is enough to justify the attempt.

 

[SuperCow]

You are assuming God has to cause everything for it to happen. This is calvinist thinking. We are all little causes. God can know what we will do because time doesn't bind him. That doesn't make him the only cause.
Libertarian free will means you and nothing else can cause certain events. They don't have to be determined by God.

So does God know what I am going to cause before I decide to cause it?

 

[timothyu]

The earth, the sky, the sea, the galaxy, the universe, and yes, God.

But God is outside those other categories you mentioned which we are able to comprehend

It sounds as if God is more interested in us knowing ourselves and coming to an understanding that our self serving ways are not His ways. It's not what about God that separates Him from us, but what is it about us that separates us from Him. (see #41)

 

[renniks]

Like I said, “a crystal ball of some sort”

God's attributes aren't sorcery.

 

[renniks]

So does God know what I am going to cause before I decide to cause it?

Of course. That doesn't make him the cause.

 

[Derf]

God's attributes aren't sorcery.

Does that offend you? It should. But if Gid is looking outside Himself for the information about the future, it might be considered sorcery.

 

[renniks]

Does that offend you? It should. But if Gid is looking outside Himself for the information about the future, it might be considered sorcery.

Exactly. But why would anyone assume that God had to look to something else for information?

 

[SuperCow]

I took the crystal ball thing as an analogy, not a literal possibility.

 

[SuperCow]

Not intending to complicate the discussion, but if anyone but Jesus performed what he did in the gospels, would not most humans of most ages consider it a kind of sorcery? Jesus probably would have been hung or burned alive in the Salem witch trials.

 

[Derf]

Exactly. But why would anyone assume that God had to look to something else for information?

I wouldn’t. But there are many that say God can see into the future to know how to give accurate prophecies. You just called that sorcery.

 

[Derf]

I took the crystal ball thing as an analogy, not a literal possibility.

Perhaps a metaphor. It wouldn’t necessarily be a physical object that helps God see into the future, but the pre-existence of the future before God decided what He will do suggests another agent, active before God created the world, that was more all-knowing than God.

Not intending to complicate the discussion, but if anyone but Jesus performed what he did in the gospels, would not most humans of most ages consider it a kind of sorcery? Jesus probably would have been hung or burned alive in the Salem witch trials.

agreed. And divination, which God forbids, is wrong because we are looking for help from some other spiritual source than the true one, yet seeking God’s knowledge, which many in the Old Testament did, including David, would be very much the same thing as divination—just from the one true source.

 

[SuperCow]

But God is outside those other categories you mentioned which we are able to comprehend

It sounds as if God is more interested in us knowing ourselves and coming to an understanding that our self serving ways are not His ways. It's not what about God that separates Him from us, but what is it about us that separates us from Him. (see #41)

Moses spent half of his time on Mount Sinai trying to comprehend God, including asking to see what he looked like. I don't see us trying to do the same thing as a problem.

 

[renniks]

I wouldn’t. But there are many that say God can see into the future to know how to give accurate prophecies. You just called that sorcery.

No I said him using " some kind of crystal ball" would be sorcery.
God knowing the future doesn't depend on anything outside God.
How can a timeless Being see into the future anyway? It would seem that there's no past, present or future to someone who isn't bound by time.
What is time for an omnipresent Being?