Was the fall necessary and pre-ordained?

[renniks]

But you're main problem is that you have no scripture that tells you how God relates to time except those that say He is within time. He is patient, for instance, meaning He can wait for a time period without becoming irritated. He is longsuffering.

"Heaven is My throne,
And earth is the footstool of My feet;
What kind of house will you build for Me?’ says the Lord,
‘Or what place is there for My repose?"

"one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

Doesn't all include time?

 

[timothyu]

Is not time in our existence that we can comprehend linked to the movements of the planets etc. as was spoken about the usefulness of the lesser heavens? *seasons, years, new moons etc. Our concept of time didn't even exist in Jesus' time. We have no idea if time exists in God's Heaven or if there is anything there that could be linked to time like here

 

[SuperCow]

So if time works totally different for God it, seems to me that open theism still can't work.
"A thousand years is as a day"...
Then God still would know too much for it to make sense.

Sounds like that scripture says God is within time, but just from a different frame of reference.

 

[Derf]

Is not time in our existence that we can comprehend linked to the movements of the planets etc. as was spoken about the usefulness of the lesser heavens? *seasons, years, new moons etc. Our concept of time didn't even exist in Jesus' time. We have no idea if time exists in God's Heaven or if there is anything there that could be linked to time like here

Because our concept of time didn’t exist in Jesus’ time, we can’t be too sure it’s correct, and therefore we shouldn’t presume to hold God to it. Yet God only describes Himself as working within time as we experience it, except He transcends our experience of time, being both before and after our time, and He isn’t held back from doing His will, whether it takes a moment or a millennium.

 

[Derf]

So if time works totally different for God it, seems to me that open theism still can't work.
"A thousand years is as a day"...
Then God still would know too much for it to make sense.

I hope you realize that this comment completely destroys your position in God being outside of time. The reference is to God’s longsuffering—an attribute that only makes sense with respect to time.
2 Peter 3:8-9 (NKJV) 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I think I already covered the important parts. I find it impossible to believe that God doesn't just know the future because of being omnipotent.
I acknowledge that from our point of view, there are almost unlimited options for how the future plays out, depending on everyone's choices.
Just taking the instance of Jesus saying Peter would deny him three times. That's pretty specific. How could he guess that exact number unless he just knew? He could guess Peter would do a certain thing because of his personality, but, no, Jesus knew exactly how it would play out.

How many times did Satan tempt Jesus? Would he have continued tempting Him, had he been allowed to do so? But Jesus sent him away: Matthew 4:10 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” Jesus wasn’t just dealing with Peter, but with Satan as well. Remember? Jesus told Peter that Satan had asked for permission to tempt Peter: Luke 22:31 (NKJV) And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift [you] as wheat.“
Surely Jesus knew not only Peter’s weaknesses, but also what permission had been granted to Satan, as in how many times Satan was allowed to tempt Peter.
One more thing—Jesus is lord of roosters, too. Don’t you think He could delay the rooster’s crowing, if He needed to?

 

[Derf]

"Heaven is My throne,
And earth is the footstool of My feet;
What kind of house will you build for Me?’ says the Lord,
‘Or what place is there for My repose?"

"one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

Doesn't all include time?

If it does, then you’ve ceded your position. You’ve just said God is in time, if “all” includes time.

 

[SuperCow]

One more thing—Jesus is lord of roosters, too. Don’t you think He could delay the rooster’s crowing, if He needed to?

There's no power in the universe that can stop a rooster from waking you up in the morning.

 

[renniks]

Sounds like that scripture says God is within time, but just from a different frame of reference.

I don't see it that way, but even if it does, he obviously knows something about the future.

 

[renniks]

hope you realize that this comment completely destroys your position in God being outside of time.

No, I I think it's actually saying time doesn't exist for God, but I'm willing to try and look at it from another viewpoint.

 

[renniks]

Surely Jesus knew not only Peter’s weaknesses, but also what permission had been granted to Satan, as in how many times Satan was allowed to tempt Peter.
One more thing—Jesus is lord of roosters, too. Don’t you think He could delay the rooster’s crowing, if He needed to?

Sounds like Calvinism.
I think it's going too far to assume Satan asks permission of God ever time he does something, and Greg Boyd, open theist, has been helpful in my understanding of this.

 

[renniks]

If it does, then you’ve ceded your position. You’ve just said God is in time, if “all” includes time.

Um, no just the opposite. God is over and through and in as he sees fit. He's not bound by creation. If he's over time, he's not subject to time.

 

[SuperCow]

I think this boils down to a these points.

God has complete control over us and our environment.

Because he has complete control, it wouldn't matter if he didn't see the future, because he can control it. We know he can control time, because he did it twice in the Bible. The obvious and best known is Joshua 10:12 and the other (that might lead to interpretational differences) is 2 Kings 20:8-11 for king Hezekiah.

We have no idea how physics works outside of our universe, either before or after the Big Bang. Every theory science has relates to our physical universe, after the Big Bang. Despite the two previous points, we can surmise that there might be some limits. Even if you are a young earth creationist, God did not create the universe instantly for Adam. It took 6 days. That, albeit technically an insignificant point, is evidence that cause and effect still apply. (Full disclosure: I believe in old earth creationism)

There is also some evidence of limitations in whatever we define our heavenly realm to be. Otherwise angels, presumably more intelligent than us, would have seen the futility in rebelling. It seems unlikely that there would either be a Satan or any fallen angels.

The only question is whether God created angels to rebel, and man to sin. That is one logical position, even if it is derived from a doctrine outside of the Bible. It would seem unjust; however, to punish the angels and humans who sinned, when they were just following their purpose.

The other logical position is that God created everything with every opportunity to succeed, and they didn't. And logical branches of sub-positions stem from that. Did the emergence of humans actually entice the angels to sin, or did this intrigue begin before humans existed. The politics (if you can call it that) of heaven are not clear. (The only hint we get is from the book of Job)

If God has absolute total omnipotent control over everything, and full knowledge of all future events from the beginning of time, this grand experiment of earth, paradise, sin and redemption to prove whatever doctrine you believe in is pointless. The necessary understanding of pure perfection could have been implanted from the beginning in every type of sentient creature imaginable.

If, however, people, angels and any other creature were created to learn and succeed and come to God willingly and not be pre-programmed androids, only then can our situation on earth start to make some sense.

 

[Derf]

No, I I think it's actually saying time doesn't exist for God, but I'm willing to try and look at it from another viewpoint.

I appreciate that!

Um, no just the opposite. God is over and through and in as he sees fit. He's not bound by creation. If he's over time, he's not subject to time.

I guess we need to talk about what "subject to time" means. If it means that God has to wait until certain days come or until some response from someone occurs, in order to complete some activity relating to those days or entities, then God appears to be subject to time. He waited 400 years before the Israelites could come out of Egypt, and part of that was dealing with the Israelites, and another part was dealing with the Amorites. Gen 15:13-16. Could God have dealt differently with either? I'm sure He could, but His word tells us He waited. And 2Pet says it was like waiting less than a day for Him, but He still waited--He was longsuffering toward the Amorites. This is not an aberration, but a common theme in the scriptures. God gives time for repentance. He waited 40 days to see if the Ninevites would repent, and they did.

Here's God waiting again:
[Isa 30:18 KJV] 18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD [is] a God of judgment: blessed [are] all they that wait for him.

Sounds like Calvinism.
I think it's going too far to assume Satan asks permission of God ever time he does something, and Greg Boyd, open theist, has been helpful in my understanding of this.

I think you've moved from my statement to something else. I never suggested Satan always has to ask for permission. But in this case, as I quoted, he did. Here's another version that uses your "permission" wording, if it helps:
[Luk 22:31 NASB95] 31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded [permission] to sift you like wheat;

 

[Derf]

Because he has complete control, it wouldn't matter if he didn't see the future, because he can control it. We know he can control time, because he did it twice in the Bible. The obvious and best known is Joshua 10:12 and the other (that might lead to interpretational differences) is 2 Kings 20:8-11 for king Hezekiah.

Did God control time, or just the time pieces? Hezekiah was able to watch the sun move back up the steps, but if time actually backed up, Hezekiah would have just repeated those minutes, forgetting the part that didn't actually happen.

Same thing with Joshua, et al. They experience time, while the time pieces (sun and moon) were stopped. Just like when you fall back at the end of daylight savings time, your clocks will jump back an hour, but you haven't gone back in time.

God does things in sequence everywhere we read about Him doing things. And sequence of activity is indicative of time passage. If the word "time" trips us up, sequence gives a concept that can avoid the word, but still conveys a "before" and "after".

Augustine didn't like this idea. He thought God must have created the universe instantaneously, because God exists outside of time, and therefore He can ONLY do something instantaneously, and everything at the same time. If this is true, then it isn't something the bible confirms, because the bible talks about the order of things God does. On day 1, He made the light, THEN (a time word) He separated the light from the darkness. He hovered over the face of the waters on day 1, THEN He separated the waters from the waters on day 2.

The only question is whether God created angels to rebel, and man to sin. That is one logical position, even if it is derived from a doctrine outside of the Bible. It would seem unjust; however, to punish the angels and humans who sinned, when they were just following their purpose.

If God created and wanted the angels to rebel, then they weren't rebelling. One can't disobey God by doing exactly what He wants. And if God punishes the angels or humans for doing exactly what He wanted them to do, God is unjust.

If, however, people, angels and any other creature were created to learn and succeed and come to God willingly and not be pre-programmed androids, only then can our situation on earth start to make some sense.

 

[renniks]

guess we need to talk about what "subject to time" means. If it means that God has to wait until certain days come or until some response from someone occurs, in order to complete some activity relating to those days or entities, then God appears to be subject to time. He waited 400 years before the Israelites could come out of Egypt, and part of that was dealing with the Israelites, and another part was dealing with the Amorites. Gen 15:13-16. Could God have dealt differently with either? I'm sure He could, but His word tells us He waited. And 2Pet says it was like waiting less than a day for Him, but He still waited--He was longsuffering toward the Amorites. This is not an aberration, but a common theme in the scriptures. God gives time for repentance. He waited 40 days

Subject to time means he can not choose to see what isn't decided already.
Of course God can choose when to act. I'm not sure how that really relates. It's not as if he is capable of getting bored. It's not our kind of waiting.

 

[Derf]

Subject to time means he can not choose to see what isn't decided already.

So if He’s not subject to time, then He can see the future, but can’t necessarily be in the future? That seems like a strange limitation, suggestive of the crystal ball idea I brought up before.

Of course God can choose when to act. I'm not sure how that really relates. It's not as if he is capable of getting bored. It's not our kind of waiting.

I think it relates because that’s how the Bible describes Him. There’s no biblical support for God’s “seeing” into the future—just suppositions of people trying to figure out how God can “declare the end from the beginning”.

 

[SuperCow]

Did God control time, or just the time pieces? Hezekiah was able to watch the sun move back up the steps, but if time actually backed up, Hezekiah would have just repeated those minutes, forgetting the part that didn't actually happen.

Same thing with Joshua, et al. They experience time, while the time pieces (sun and moon) were stopped. Just like when you fall back at the end of daylight savings time, your clocks will jump back an hour, but you haven't gone back in time.

It's not entirely clear what happened. Did he stop the earth from rotating (while at the same time protecting the earth from the inertial chaos that would normally ensue when you rapidly change your speed from almost 1000 mph to zero), or did he take the battle out of their normal time reference (explaining why the event was not recorded anywhere else on the earth). Or does he just snap his godly fingers and will it to happen, which of course wouldn't require explaining.

Hezekiah's miracle could have been a simple refractive trick, impossible for humans of the day, but conceivable hundreds of years from now, (if anyone cared to dedicate resources to it for no benefit.) though possibly simple for a super-being.

God does things in sequence everywhere we read about Him doing things. And sequence of activity is indicative of time passage. If the word "time" trips us up, sequence gives a concept that can avoid the word, but still conveys a "before" and "after".

Augustine didn't like this idea. He thought God must have created the universe instantaneously, because God exists outside of time, and therefore He can ONLY do something instantaneously, and everything at the same time. If this is true, then it isn't something the bible confirms, because the bible talks about the order of things God does. On day 1, He made the light, THEN (a time word) He separated the light from the darkness. He hovered over the face of the waters on day 1, THEN He separated the waters from the waters on day 2.

And predicted by the laws of physics, you can change the speed of time in different frames of reference, but you can't go back in time, unless you had a machine that was built in the past that transported you through a wormhole that you could travel back to. (Theoretically) Einstein once said he wondered if when God created the universe, he had a choice in how the laws of physics worked.

Augustine is just one man with ideas. For that matter so is Einstein. Someone could just as easily say God is somewhere with an electronic glove swiping the future back and forth like Tom Cruise in Minority Report. Ridiculous perhaps, but all of our ideas could be as well.

If God created and wanted the angels to rebel, then they weren't rebelling. One can't disobey God by doing exactly what He wants. And if God punishes the angels or humans for doing exactly what He wanted them to do, God is unjust.

Correct, which is why that theology logically fails.

 

[SuperCow]

Subject to time means he can not choose to see what isn't decided already.
Of course God can choose when to act. I'm not sure how that really relates. It's not as if he is capable of getting bored. It's not our kind of waiting.

If God can do anything, why isn't he capable of getting bored?

 

[Derf]

It's not entirely clear what happened. Did he stop the earth from rotating (while at the same time protecting the earth from the inertial chaos that would normally ensue when you rapidly change your speed from almost 1000 mph to zero), or did he take the battle out of their normal time reference (explaining why the event was not recorded anywhere else on the earth). Or does he just snap his godly fingers and will it to happen, which of course wouldn't require explaining.

It doesn’t even say the halt was instantaneous. If there was time for a slow-to-stop sequence, it might have thrown the Israelites’ foes for a loop, but not done devastating damage—maybe some ocean sloshing here and there.

Hezekiah's miracle could have been a simple refractive trick, impossible for humans of the day, but conceivable hundreds of years from now, (if anyone cared to dedicate resources to it for no benefit.) though possibly simple for a super-being.

I can imagine that this was potentially more devastating than Joshua’s event, because it reversed the world’s rotation, if that’s how God did it, in a relatively short amount of time. But considering it was an artifact of the light, and not the light source itself being described, it might allow for more of those other explanations you allude to. Like a bright meteor flying overhead or a very large and bright solar flare at dusk?? But whatever it was, with Hezekiah’s decision on which way it should go not provided until last minute, it makes the miracle pretty spectacular.

 

[Clare73]

Was the fall necessary and pre-ordained?

Now you're into the secret will of God as distinct from the revealed will of God (Deuternonmy 29:29).