Was the fall necessary and pre-ordained?

[RDKirk]

The verse just says he numbers and names stars. Not sure how that applies.

If you mean that God has merely counted the stars, then, no.

He determines the number of the stars. God set the number of stars that would be created...and that, of course, because He is in control of the creation process.

 

[renniks]

If you mean that God has merely counted the stars, then, no.

He determines the number of the stars. God set the number of stars that would be created...and that, of course, because He is in control of the creation process.

So? That doesn't mean he determined everything humans do. We aren't simple matter. We are made in God's image and given freedom of the will

 

[RDKirk]

So? That doesn't mean he determined everything humans do. We aren't simple matter. We are made in God's image and given freedom of the will

Really? Do I have the power to grow a few inches taller in my old age? Yet, my height has been a factor (sometimes greater, sometimes lesser) in determining many of my actions through my life, and as well my race, my gender, the place and time of my birth, m family history, et cetera, none of which I could control. All of those factors have bounced me along a path that was largely determinable even by a human being who could have had access to all the factors.

It's interesting that almost no secular philosophers believe in "free will," but believe that to some lesser or greater degree, human actions are externally determined. Even though scripture itself explicitly points out that human actions are at least greatly determined by external forces over which humans have no innate control, only Christians carry on about "free will."

 

[SuperCow]

And if He's just going on His "best guess," if He is capable of being caught by surprise, then He's not completely reliable, either. That would leave the possibility of Satan finally getting the better of Him.

There is no “best guess”, nor is he caught by surprise. His overall goal is set, but we have the choice in how we fit that overall goal. The Bible is full of examples of his people being given choices. The end of Deuteronomy gives Israel two paths, and different generations chose either. There is no surprise. He reveals the result of both. Neither choice changes his overall plans.

If a choice is made that is detrimental to his goals, he intervenes going back to Adam and Eve. After they sinned is when he gave the first prophecy, as none were needed before.

The prophecy of the flood was not given until the Nephilim and the spreading of violence.

The scrambling of languages was done as a reaction to Babel.

Jeremiah prophesied about servitude to Babylon, but Israel had a choice whether to submit as a vassal state and spare Jerusalem, which they rejected. Either choice was not going to change his path to the Messiah.

I could go on.

 

[SuperCow]

God set up the situation that made sin possible.

Why then plant the tree and give the command except to make sin possible?? Why create a tempter except to tempt?

If God had never given the command, sin would not have been possible. Paul acknowledges this in Romans 7. In fact, Paul goes so far as to say that by giving the command, God made sin inevitable.

Adam, as a perfect man, didn't have to sin. Paul and the rest of us, being born imperfect have the inevitable path to sin. Jesus proved that a perfect man could live a life without sin.

He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure. -- Psalm 147

Various theories of quantum mechanics (Heisenberg, Schrödinger, and others) suggest that no event actually happens, even at the subatomic level, without a rational observer judging that it happened.

Actually it says that observing an event changes it, not that it never happened. You may not know what happened if you did not observe, because you have to observe it to know what happened. That is different from no event happening. The tree falling in the forest happens whether I see it or not.

You have been describing a purpose-built mechanism that is zero tolerance in some points of operation, but with some degree of tolerance in other points of operation.

Yes, because some choices do not affect God's plans, only our own.

Wouldn't God know which future was certain from all those that were "possible?"

If God does not know the certain future, that would make God simply a successful gambler...less than a clever card-counter.

If God does know the certain future, then those other futures were not actually "possible" at all.

God is a gambler. He can just change the cards before a hand if he needs to do so. You don't need to win every hand to win the game even if you were gambling, but here's the difference.

I see choice A, B, or C. All change the lives of the chooser. A & B don't affect me, but C would, so I intervene to make sure C doesn't happen. A or B is the chooser's prerogative and determines his fate.

 

[SuperCow]

Really? Do I have the power to grow a few inches taller in my old age? Yet, my height has been a factor (sometimes greater, sometimes lesser) in determining many of my actions through my life, and as well my race, my gender, the place and time of my birth, m family history, et cetera, none of which I could control. All of those factors have bounced me along a path that was largely determinable even by a human being who could have had access to all the factors.

Your initial settings and capabilities are determined beforehand, but most of your actions are totally under your control, even if they were influenced by your background. And in today's world, people reject God even in the ways you claim you are powerless.

Yes, I can grow a couple of inches taller, if I take the right steroids and hormones when I am young.
Technically, my race doesn't change, but I can lighten and darken my skin, get plastic surgery, and look like I'm in a different race.
I can even change my gender these days it seems.
I can't change my biological parents, but I can run away from home, estrange them, get adopted.

So yes, a life is presented before you that you didn't choose, but from the moment you become self-aware you start making changes to it, for or against the glory of God.

It's interesting that almost no secular philosophers believe in "free will," but believe that to some lesser or greater degree, human actions are externally determined. Even though scripture itself explicitly points out that human actions are at least greatly determined by external forces over which humans have no innate control, only Christians carry on about "free will."

Secular philosophers usually don't believe God even exists, so their point of view on anything religious is automatically biased and suspect. Scripture clearly states that we are all given choices, but that God's overall plans are unaffected by them.

 

[renniks]

Really? Do I have the power to grow a few inches taller in my old age? Yet, my height has been a factor (sometimes greater, sometimes lesser) in determining many of my actions through my life, and as well my race, my gender, the place and time of my birth, m family history, et cetera, none of which I could control. All of those factors have bounced me along a path that was largely determinable even by a human being who could have had access to all the factors.

It's interesting that almost no secular philosophers believe in "free will," but believe that to some lesser or greater degree, human actions are externally determined. Even though scripture itself explicitly points out that human actions are at least greatly determined by external forces over which humans have no innate control, only Christians carry on about "free will."

Not having control over your height equals no free will?
Lol, ok?
And scripture never says all we do is determined. It actually claims over and over that our actions cause things to happen.