Was the fall necessary and pre-ordained?

[renniks]

wouldn’t necessarily be a physical object that helps God see into the future, but the pre-existence of the future before God decided what He will do

This assumes time exists before creation. Which is highly unlikely.

 

[Derf]

This assumes time exists before creation. Which is highly unlikely.

No I said him using " some kind of crystal ball" would be sorcery.
God knowing the future doesn't depend on anything outside God.
How can a timeless Being see into the future anyway? It would seem that there's no past, present or future to someone who isn't bound by time.
What is time for an omnipresent Being?

If you don’t know, how can you use it in an argument?
Think about this: Can God change the past? Could He now decide that Esau would get the blessing and Christ would come from his line? Couldn’t God just go back into the Garden and kill the serpent before he tempts Eve?

Why not, if God is not bound by time?

 

[SuperCow]

This assumes time exists before creation. Which is highly unlikely.

I kind of agree with this, and actually is predicted by relativity in its basic form. (Along with the Big Bang Theory, which followed a parallel path of discovery.) These are examples of incomprehensible things that have become comprehensible only in the past hundred years or so. It's another example of why trying to comprehend God makes perfect sense as it brings us closer to understanding the origins of the universe and ourselves.

Sure, the understanding of God will always be many levels above anything we can understand, but we can continually come closer to it.

 

[renniks]

If you don’t know, how can you use it in an argument?
Think about this: Can God change the past? Could He now decide that Esau would get the blessing and Christ would come from his line? Couldn’t God just go back into the Garden and kill the serpent before he tempts Eve?

Why not, if God is not bound by time?

He could, but that's not how he chooses to work in human affairs. Because he keeps his promises, which is another fact about him that is based on his attributes.

 

[Derf]

He could, but that's not how he chooses to work in human affairs. Because he keeps his promises, which is another fact about him that is based on his attributes.

Then you’re actually saying God is bound by time, or at least bound Himself to time. Which means He is currently bound by time, in a sense.

 

[renniks]

Then you’re actually saying God is bound by time, or at least bound Himself to time. Which means He is currently bound by time, in a sense.

I'm not seeing it.
He chooses what he wants to do based on nothing but who he is

 

[Derf]

I'm not seeing it.
He chooses what he wants to do based on nothing but who he is

Then He can bind Himself to time, right?

You’re essentially playing the mystery card, but using it to somehow support your view. If God is such a mystery, how can you say anything about Him at all? The best we can do is look in the scriptures and read what He’s told us about Himself.

One thing scripture does not tell us is that He is “outside of time”. Neither does it say He created time. He might have, but when did He do that? Did He first plan the salvation of man through His Son? If so, then there was sequence (“first” plan, “then” create—both are “sequence” words).

Has God ever destroyed something before He created it? Sequence says that’s ridiculous. And that’s what time is.

 

[renniks]

One thing scripture does not tell us is that He is “outside of time”. Neither does it say He created time

Time is relative. It cannot exist without matter.

Space and time don't exist without matter, they exist only related with matter. Therefore space and time are not quantities, but qualities of reality.

So time was created when matter was created. A lot of what I've read on this says our time would actually have started when the world begin revolving.

 

[renniks]

Has God ever destroyed something before He created it? Sequence says that’s ridiculous. And that’s what time is

How would we know if he did?

 

[SuperCow]

Time is relative. It cannot exist without matter.

Space and time don't exist without matter, they exist only related with matter. Therefore space and time are not quantities, but qualities of reality.

So time was created when matter was created. A lot of what I've read on this says our time would actually have started when the world begin revolving.

That's like saying time began when you were born (or conceived). The universe predates our sun and the earth. The very latest that you could say time began is (1:1) "In the beginning...", and even in young earth creationism the earth doesn't start revolving until (1:4) "separated the light from the darkness".

But as for your first cosmological point, when you reach the gravitational event horizon in a black hose, or the speed of light you reach a point of instantaneous infinity. If the Big Bang comes from a singularity, then anything within that singularity instantaneously goes through infinity, and your perception of time slows only as the universe expands beyond the quantum light barrier. Any one or anything outside that quantum barrier has their own sense of whatever reality exists, but within that barrier reality is bound by the time perception within.

Since no humans were around in the beginning, that part of history must have been transmitted by God to humans (or made up I guess), so God explains it within the bounds of our perception of time, hence the creative days. This is why some talk about God being outside of time, but what they should concede in this case is that the concept of a literal day in the creation sense is also meaningless, because God uses day for us, not for him. And even if it was for him, the 24 hours could be an exceedingly long time for someone outside the boundary of time.

 

[renniks]

That's like saying time began when you were born (or conceived). The universe predates our sun and the earth. The very latest that you could say time began is (1:1) "In the beginning...", and even in young earth creationism the earth doesn't start revolving until (1:4) "separated the light from the darkness".

But as for your first cosmological point, when you reach the gravitational event horizon in a black hose, or the speed of light you reach a point of instantaneous infinity. If the Big Bang comes from a singularity, then anything within that singularity instantaneously goes through infinity, and your perception of time slows only as the universe expands beyond the quantum light barrier. Any one or anything outside that quantum barrier has their own sense of whatever reality exists, but within that barrier reality is bound by the time perception within.

Since no humans were around in the beginning, that part of history must have been transmitted by God to humans (or made up I guess), so God explains it within the bounds of our perception of time, hence the creative days. This is why some talk about God being outside of time, but what they should concede in this case is that the concept of a literal day in the creation sense is also meaningless, because God uses day for us, not for him. And even if it was for him, the 24 hours could be an exceedingly long time for someone outside the boundary of time.

Um, ok!?
Not sure I follow. Perhaps God is the singularity.
Which means time and everything is made from his essence.

 

[SuperCow]

Um, ok!?
Not sure I follow. Perhaps God is the singularity.
Which means time and everything is made from his essence.

Or God created the singularity out of his own energy. We'd have to leave the universe to know the answer to that.

 

[renniks]

Or God created the singularity out of his own energy. We'd have to leave the universe to know the answer to that.

Which just brings us full circle. There's too much we can not know about God. But logic tells us he can not be limited by what he created.

 

[SuperCow]

Which just brings us full circle. There's too much we can not know about God. But logic tells us he can not be limited by what he created.

Not completely. If you're using logic to say he cannot be limited, then logic itself would be a limitation. The problem is the question divulges into our out of a paradox.

The core question before our sidebar on time was whether God sees the future in a omniscient way or whether it was a choice, and whether that choice extended to humans. And if you know exactly what your humans will do in an omniscient way, then the only choice is how you construct your human brain and their environment. And if you are an omniscient, "always knowing before you do it" being, then God made the choice to make humans that would sin.

Therefore the only logical choice that satisfies the paradox is the choice to know, or the choice to not look ahead or at least looking ahead is a conscious choice. This avoids the silly idea that God made Satan in order to tempt man (which again shifts blame for human suffering to God ultimately), or that Adam and Eve would have been selfish not to sin and die. (The latter I think is a Mormon teaching)

Otherwise the beginning of Job makes no sense, along with Satan tempting Jesus during his fasting in Luke, because Satan clearly would realize better than us that God is omniscient and that what he was attempting was impossible.

 

[timothyu]

because Satan clearly would realize better than us that God is omniscient and that what he was attempting was impossible.

Not when he was addressing the flesh.
The Adversary had no problem in having the Gentile Church accept his offer of all this can be yours, (the same thing Jesus turned down) when the church abandoned the governance/Kingdom of God to partake in partnership with the governance/kingdoms of man centuries ago.

 

[renniks]

Not completely. If you're using logic to say he cannot be limited, then logic itself would be a limitation. The problem is the question divulges into our out of a paradox.

The core question before our sidebar on time was whether God sees the future in a omniscient way or whether it was a choice, and whether that choice extended to humans. And if you know exactly what your humans will do in an omniscient way, then the only choice is how you construct your human brain and their environment. And if you are an omniscient, "always knowing before you do it" being, then God made the choice to make humans that would sin.

Therefore the only logical choice that satisfies the paradox is the choice to know, or the choice to not look ahead or at least looking ahead is a conscious choice. This avoids the silly idea that God made Satan in order to tempt man (which again shifts blame for human suffering to God ultimately), or that Adam and Eve would have been selfish not to sin and die. (The latter I think is a Mormon teaching)

Otherwise the beginning of Job makes no sense, along with Satan tempting Jesus during his fasting in Luke, because Satan clearly would realize better than us that God is omniscient and that what he was attempting was impossible.

So, open theism?
I tried it and found it wanting.

 

[Derf]

How would we know if he did?

How would you know if God made a rock so big He couldn't lift it?

Time is relative. It cannot exist without matter.

Space and time don't exist without matter, they exist only related with matter. Therefore space and time are not quantities, but qualities of reality.

So time was created when matter was created. A lot of what I've read on this says our time would actually have started when the world begin revolving.

Your understanding of time may be tied to matter, just as you are a physical being. God's understanding of time is not, since He doesn't require matter to exist.

But you're main problem is that you have no scripture that tells you how God relates to time except those that say He is within time. He is patient, for instance, meaning He can wait for a time period without becoming irritated. He is longsuffering.

 

[Derf]

So, open theism?
I tried it and found it wanting.

I’d be interested to know how.

 

[renniks]

I’d be interested to know how.

I think I already covered the important parts. I find it impossible to believe that God doesn't just know the future because of being omnipotent.
I acknowledge that from our point of view, there are almost unlimited options for how the future plays out, depending on everyone's choices.
Just taking the instance of Jesus saying Peter would deny him three times. That's pretty specific. How could he guess that exact number unless he just knew? He could guess Peter would do a certain thing because of his personality, but, no, Jesus knew exactly how it would play out.

 

[renniks]

Your understanding of time may be tied to matter, just as you are a physical being. God's understanding of time is not, since He doesn't require matter to exist

So if time works totally different for God it, seems to me that open theism still can't work.
"A thousand years is as a day"...
Then God still would know too much for it to make sense.