Was the fall necessary and pre-ordained?

[com7fy8]

I guess, I'm suggesting there could be a positive aspect to the fall, by moving from a place of innocent bliss, to an aware suffering..?

Well, the LORD told them not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, it was not good from them, that they did that.

And when people suffer because they disobey God, they can tend to be in denial about it and be busy blaming. So, they do not benefit and learn from their suffering, often enough.

But with Jesus I can learn to use my suffering to help me to feel for others who are in physical suffering and spiritual problems. I can get clear of sin things which have gotten me in trouble, then feel for others who are still doing wrong stuff, and do what I can to help them.

 

[timothyu]

if we act just like God wants us to, and He punishes us for it, God shows Himself unjust.

It was our choice to become self aware. The only punishment will be upon those who refuse to give up the self serving ways of man even though they know it to be an imperfect and oppressive system. Our politicians and the rich and powerful would be the first to rebel against the idea of the governance of man being set aside for the governance of God. Care to hazard any guesses as to why?

 

[renniks]

I think you all are missing the point of the poster (or what should be the point) and slipping into paradoxical answers. If God knew Adam and Eve were going to sin before he created them, then his act of creation excludes the free will of the recipient, or at best it's a phony choice, because you were already given the disposition to sin upon your creation. We would all be part of an elaborate algorithm that is preset for every living thing.

Every choice must be a free blind choice. The Bible does not say God knew what their choice would be. God just had a contingency plan for every possibility. Also, I don't think the choice was uninformed. The reasoning was simple. Don't eat the fruit or you'll die. Be good and I'll make sure your life is happy. The only thing he missed was "by the way, if a talking serpent strides by telling you anything different, don't believe it."

I think that's a stretch. Just because God knows does not make your choice pre programmed.

 

[SuperCow]

Are you saying God has the ability to know the future, but decides not to?

Yes. And further to that, I think that knowing the future can mean many different things to a being with the power of God.

Doesn't that tell us that the future is already settled? And if settled, God may as well know it, since even He can't change it. But if God can't even change His own future (settled, remember, because God knows what it is), then even God doesn't have free will, but everybody's fate, including God's, is in the hand of some higher power--higher than God's, or at least more omniscient.

Quite the opposite actually. Nothing is settled unless God determines it needs to be. It would be quite a boring existence to know what is going to happen every day for the rest of your life before it happens, and that is for a human intelligence. Why couldn’t it be a situation where God creates mankind after preparing a home for him, but wants to put them down here to see if they’d follow him willingly?

Remember that the downfall of man didn’t start on earth, but in heaven. (At least most Christians agree that Satan controlled the serpent, not that the serpents in the garden could talk.) When his creation took the wrong path, God took action to correct the future. And it happened multiple times.

Angels interfered with women and created the Nephilim. God sent a flood.

Men decided to oppose God with the Tower of Babel. God scrambled their language. And around the same time started interfered with Abraham’s life to set his timeline in motion for the next 8 generations or so until the Exodus.

Then God threatened to destroy them and start again with Moses, but Moses petitioned God not to.

When the Israelites wanted a king, they gave them Saul, who started out okay, but failed miserably. God started again with David and regretted making Saul king. (As per the literal description in the Bible) God later anointed Jereboam to lead the northern tribes when Rehoboam was king. Jereboam rebelled early and every single king in Israel from that time forward was evil. (Except for Jehu)

So, now we have only 1 out of 3 kings anointed by God that were righteous. (The rest were hereditary.)

I agree with you that a prophecy doesn't mean God is omniscient. Most prophecies are about stuff God is planning to do, like destroy some nation because of their sin.

And if you think about the prophecies where God gave two choices, his overall strategy and earlier prophecies would have remained intact.

But neither does omniscient have to mean you know everything that will happen in the future...unless the future is settled. So a settled future both makes God omniscient of decision He hasn't even made yet (not to mention our own), and makes Him a prisoner of that future.

Which is why I reject the premise that choices made were the only ones that could have been made and that God made mankind to sin and carry on evil.

 

[SuperCow]

I think that's a stretch. Just because God knows does not make your choice pre programmed.

If you know what someone is going to do before you create them, how is it not pre-programmed?

 

[Derf]

Yes. And further to that, I think that knowing the future can mean many different things to a being with the power of God.

Meaning that God can know the future in multiple ways? For instance, if I throw a ball, God can know where it will land based on physics, even if another ball is coming at the first one at some trajectory, rain is starting to fall, with a few hailstones, and an earthquake is just starting?

Quite the opposite actually. Nothing is settled unless God determines it needs to be. It would be quite a boring existence to know what is going to happen every day for the rest of your life before it happens, and that is for a human intelligence. Why couldn’t it be a situation where God creates mankind after preparing a home for him, but wants to put them down here to see if they’d follow him willingly?

I’m ok with that. Of course that means that God might not know a particular part of the future, not because He doesn’t want to, but because He and other agents haven’t determined it yet. Maybe I haven’t decided which direction to throw the ball.

And if you think about the prophecies where God gave two choices, his overall strategy and earlier prophecies would have remained intact.

I don’t see why that wouldn’t be the case.

Which is why I reject the premise that choices made were the only ones that could have been made and that God made mankind to sin and carry on evil.

They only need to be if God needs to know that part of the future. And if He feels insecure in not knowing.

 

[SuperCow]

Meaning that God can know the future in multiple ways? For instance, if I throw a ball, God can know where it will land based on physics, even if another ball is coming at the first one at some trajectory, rain is starting to fall, with a few hailstones, and an earthquake is just starting?

Exactly, it’s just that God knows of many other butterfly effect influences and perhaps can calculate them instantly and decide what needs to be done if anything. Just like I can calculate 8+6=14 almost instantly, but if I have no need to make that calculation, I am not thinking about it.

They only need to be if God needs to know that part of the future. And if He feels insecure in not knowing.

I don’t think I would use the word “insecure” with God, but I think you get my point.

 

[renniks]

If you know what someone is going to do before you create them, how is it not pre-programmed?

Because knowledge isn't causation. If he caused thier rebellion then it would be pre programmed but that's not in scripture.

 

[SuperCow]

Because knowledge isn't causation. If he caused thier rebellion then it would be pre programmed but that's not in scripture.

You're putting a line between two concepts that doesn't exist. If I'm on a billiards table (and assuming I'm incredibly skilled and never miss), I hit the cue ball in a particular direction, knowing that it will hit the 8-ball into the corner pocket.

In your logic, you are saying that I didn't cause the 8-ball to go into the corner pocket, because I only hit the cue-ball, even though I had the knowledge ahead of time that it would subsequently knock the 8-ball into the corner pocket.

 

[Derf]

Because knowledge isn't causation. If he caused thier rebellion then it would be pre programmed but that's not in scripture.

Knowledge prior to existence is causative. I.e., if God, before He creates anything, knows exactly what everyone will do, it's either because He is causing it, or he's tapping into another source that's causing it.

Think of it this way. We are causative agents. I can decide to go get a bowl of ice cream right now, walk to the freezer and dip the ice cream into a bowl. However, if God knew before I was born that I would at this particular time go and get a bowl of ice cream, it isn't because he read my thoughts or knew my general appreciation for ice cream, because those things wouldn't exist yet, UNLESS someone else besides me formed me with those particular tendencies such that on this particular day at this particular time I would have a hankering for ice cream (which I'm starting to feel, as I type). Thus, the knowledge, before I exist, of me wanting a bowl of ice cream right now would have to be causative to be true knowledge. After I exist, God can "search my thoughts" and determine before I get the bowl of ice cream that I'm about to go get it, but that's likely not a very long-term prediction, unless I have a habit of getting ice cream at this time every day.

Angels are causative agents, as is Satan. God can read their minds, no doubt, and determine what they are thinking before they act on those thoughts, but if He knew before He created them how they were all going to act, it would have to be causative, or getting the knowledge from another causative source.

If God had to get His knowledge from another causative source to know what would happen after creation, that would suggest God is NOT the most knowledgeable entity in the universe.

I like to describe these two ideas of God's foreknowledge as "Calvinism" and "Arminianism".
"Calvinism" believes God is the causative force for everything.
"Arminianism" believes there's another causative force, and God just looks at the future through a crystal ball of some sort. Now, an honest Arminian would say that God can change the future, in which case he becomes a Calvinist, because then His knowledge of the future has to depend on His causative power, rather than on some other entity's causative power.

One can easily see the conundrum here--that Arminianism devolves into Calvinism, and that Calvinism has God as the author of sin. But both assume that the future is fixed, and they are trying to understand how it works, inscribing to God attributes He doesn't deserve.

 

[SuperCow]

In the Arminianism category (and I growing more familiar with these terms), God causing certain things does not devolve into pure Calvinism, because he can cause events, while leaving other events to their natural causative quantum state, so to speak. For instance, Abraham through to the Exodus could be considered causative, and therefore Calvinistic. (Assuming your definitions are correct) After, the Exodus there are two paths diverging (follow the law or rebel into false worship) in their effect on Israel; however, regardless of what Israel chose, and whatever God did or did not do as a result, he was still going to bring Jesus as Israel's Messiah. And if Reuben, Simeon, or Levi did not behave the same way, maybe Jesus would have come from one of their lines instead of Judah.

But over in China or North America, what was going on in the Middle East had no direct effect, and God lets them do what they do, except maybe if some 8th century BC Asian leader wanted to take 100K warriors into the Middle East, and God decided to give him a stroke and we never found out about it. (Maybe the 13th century invasion of Europe by the Mongols is an example of that, since it was ended by the death of a single king, Genghis Kahn, and not by anything the Europeans could have done at the time?)

I think the point is that both of those viewpoints can exist in harmony in different circumstances.

 

[Derf]

In the Arminianism category (and I growing more familiar with these terms), God causing certain things does not devolve into pure Calvinism, because he can cause events, while leaving other events to their natural causative quantum state, so to speak. For instance, Abraham through to the Exodus could be considered causative, and therefore Calvinistic. (Assuming your definitions are correct) After, the Exodus there are two paths diverging (follow the law or rebel into false worship) in their effect on Israel; however, regardless of what Israel chose, and whatever God did or did not do as a result, he was still going to bring Jesus as Israel's Messiah. And if Reuben, Simeon, or Levi did not behave the same way, maybe Jesus would have come from one of their lines instead of Judah.

But over in China or North America, what was going on in the Middle East had no direct effect, and God lets them do what they do, except maybe if some 8th century BC Asian leader wanted to take 100K warriors into the Middle East, and God decided to give him a stroke and we never found out about it. (Maybe the 13th century invasion of Europe by the Mongols is an example of that, since it was ended by the death of a single king, Genghis Kahn, and not by anything the Europeans could have done at the time?)

I think the point is that both of those viewpoints can exist in harmony in different circumstances.

I think you’re jumping between a settled future view and an open future view. If God has always known what everybody in the whole world was going to do at every point in their lives, even before He created the heavens and earth and everything in them, then He must be the causative force for me getting my bowl of ice cream, or there’s another causative force more powerful than God. Those are the only options “Calvinism” and “Arminianism” allow. Because the information exists according to them, and accurate information that’s about something that doesn’t yet exist either causes the events or comes from the causer of the events. DNA, for example, causes (allows) an organism to be constructed and maintained in the manner prescribed in the DNA.

 

[timothyu]

DNA, for example, causes (allows) an organism to be constructed and maintained in the manner prescribed in the DNA.

It can also prescribe a method of death, which man has in this day and age often been able to alter due to medical advances. One operation can move your death date up years.

 

[Derf]

It can also prescribe a method of death, which man has in this day and age often been able to alter due to medical advances. One operation can move your death date up years.

Maybe several potential methods of death. But it can’t prevent other kinds, like falling off a cliff, or getting hit by a bus. So it might be a limiting factor, but not a complete determinant. And, as you say, we causative agents can sometimes do something about our death date, either positively or negatively. But if God knows before the world began what kind of death we will die and the exact date, we aren’t causative in our death at all.

 

[SuperCow]

I think you’re jumping between a settled future view and an open future view. If God has always known what everybody in the whole world was going to do at every point in their lives, even before He created the heavens and earth and everything in them, then He must be the causative force for me getting my bowl of ice cream, or there’s another causative force more powerful than God. Those are the only options “Calvinism” and “Arminianism” allow. Because the information exists according to them, and accurate information that’s about something that doesn’t yet exist either causes the events or comes from the causer of the events. DNA, for example, causes (allows) an organism to be constructed and maintained in the manner prescribed in the DNA.

That's the problem with these absolute ideologies, because their rigidity demands one or the other, when both is a completely reasonable position. It's entirely likely based on different elements of the Bible that God has been causative in some situations and open in others.

 

[Derf]

That's the problem with these absolute ideologies, because their rigidity demands one or the other, when both is a completely reasonable position. It's entirely likely based on different elements of the Bible that God has been causative in some situations and open in others.

Again, the issue is usually whether God knows the future exhaustively, and how He knows it. And the easiest way to think it through is to look at the extremes in time. I.e., if God knew the future before He created anything, then He must have created everything in such a way that all that He knew about the future (which is everything) would come to pass. Arminianism says that God knows the whole future, but doesn't cause it all (including our receiving of the gospel).
I guess what you're saying is that neither are correct BECAUSE they are rigid, but that both could be correct, if they weren't. I'd say that if they weren't rigid, there's no discussion, because they admit they aren't absolute, leaving some things in the future not known by God--which is an open future. That means God causes what He wants to have happen, and He knows everything He’s planning to do.

For the thread topic, I think if He caused the first couple to sin, then He’s the author, but if it’s possible they could avoid the sin, then 1. He didn’t cause it, and 2. He might not have known when it would happen, even if it somehow was inevitable (like if the temptations were to continue forever).

 

[timothyu]

Why do people think God thinks or acts in a way any human can comprehend.. How vain of us to even consider we can reverse engineer Him.

 

[Derf]

Why do people think God thinks or acts in a way any human can comprehend.. How vain of us to even consider we can reverse engineer Him.

Why do people not think God has told us a lot of information about Himself so that we can get to know Him better?

 

[timothyu]

Why do people not think God has told us a lot of information about Himself so that we can get to know Him better?

God throughout the Bible tells us His ways and will is superior to our ways and will. We aren't interested in what he wants or to know/follow His will, we only think of what's in it for us. Original sin was putting our will ahead of His and we continue to do so. Jesus comes to give us the good news that God will be returning to live among us. What does man do? Get excited about His return? No, they got excited about what was in it for us and even built a religion around our self interest in His return, the very reason He left in the first place.

 

[Derf]

God throughout the Bible tells us His ways and will is superior to our ways and will. We aren't interested in what he wants or to know/follow His will, we only think of what's in it for us. Original sin was putting our will ahead of His and we continue to do so. Jesus comes to give us the good news that God will be returning to live among us. What does man do? Get excited about His return? No, they got excited about what was in it for us and even built a religion around our self interest in His return, the very reason He left in the first place.

I didn’t see an actual reply to my post. Do you think God told us anything about Himself in His word?