FreeGrace2 said:
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So, Arminians have a real problem since they believe that their salvation can be lost/etc by their own actions, as if Christ didn't die for every sin, or that their actions can trump Christ's work on the cross.
Is it not a mandate of God that we repent? Must we not live righteousness lives striving not to sin to be a Christian?
First, your rapid fire questions don't address what I said.
Second, the Greek word for 'repent' means to change the mind. In order to believe something that you didn't believe before, you MUST change your mind.
If, as you say, there is no action I can take that would lose me my salvation, then why must I live for Christ after I am saved?
This is an excellent question; one that every believer should be asking. Sadly, though, your question reveals that you do believe that you can do something that Christ didn't die for. There is nothing He left out.
There are basically 2 reasons to live for Christ after salvation.
1. God warns of His discipline, which Heb 12:11 describes as PAINFUL for those who are rebellious or disobedient. The Bible has given plenty of examples of how God disciplines His children.
2. God promises reward and blessing for obedient children.
So you will be motivated by either or both of these 2 reasons. Or those brain dead types will just go on living their lives the way they want to and be miserable, even if you can't see their misery. They may appear quite happy/satisfied to others. But we can't see their souls and feel their suffering.
Why can’t I believe in Christ, become saved, and then live however I want.
There is nothing stopping you. But you've now learned about what God warns and promises. So go and knock yourself out.
btw, this same principle was expressed even back in the OT.
Isa 1:18-20
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19
If you are
willing and obedient, you
will eat the good things of the land;
20 but
if you
resist and rebel, you
will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
So, the red words in each verse indicate a choice of every believer.
The blue words in each verse show the RESULTS or consequences of those choices.
What sounds good to you? This is where I got the "2 reasons" from.
Why can’t I go enjoy as much of this life as I want: raping, killing, stealing, living all the most pleasurable ways I can find?
Becuase of reason #1. You won't be happy or enjoy life, as you so erroneously presume.
I am still saved if I do so, right?
Once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God.
Don't you believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life? They shall never perish.
Why don't you believe what Jesus said?
No! To do so would make me, as Paul puts it, “disqualified for the prize”.
Correct! But not because of what you think. Paul was speaking of eternal rewards. Not salvation.
We must remain faithful until the end. We must endure. We must “finish the race”, and “keep the faith”.
How come you don't see your own works involved in enduring for salvation? We endure for reward.
2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive
what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
What do you think of the bolded words?
Let me ask you, what does Rom 8:39 mean? Does it mean we cannot lose our salvation? NO!!
It says that nothing can remove us from the LOVE of God. But does the love of God equal salvation? No. God loved us when we were sinners. He loved us when we were lost. So He can still love us when we fall from grace and lose the salvation He gave us.
If God lets us lose salvation, then all His promises are bogus.
But, let's examine the previous verse:
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,
neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
Now, what do you suppose Paul meant by "the future"? It should be obvious that he meant that there is NOTHING in the future that would separate us from God's love.
That means even the second soil (parable) who only "believed for a while" which was future to when he initially believed won't lose salvation.
But the bottom line for Arminians is that believing that salvation can be lost simply do not believe what Jesus said about eternal life.
In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe (present tense) have (possess - present tense) eternal life. This means they possess eternal life WHEN they believe.
Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
So, from the moment of faith in Christ, that person shall never perish because they possess eternal life. And eternal life cannot die.
Very simple.
It most certainly is relevant. You say that action is not included in faith, but is a byproduct of faith.
If this was true, then WHY all the commands for holy living? They wouldn't be needed.
That would be like saying the soul is not part of a man, but is the byproduct of a man.
Not even close to being relevant.
What did Jesus Himself say? “If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father.”
Didn't you read the whole verse? Apparently not.
2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; Other translations have "deny" instead of "disown". Deny is the correct word.
What Paul is teaching is that those who endure IN the faith will be rewarded by reigning with Him in His Millennial kingdom.
However, if we deny Him, like Peter did 3 times in a row, He will deny us the privilege and reward of reigning with Him.
Now, v.13 - if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
So, what does this mean? All believers have the Holy Spirit IN them. So even those who are faithless, God CANNOT deny Himself. Therefore, all believers cannot be disowned.
We find the same teaching in Romans 8:17
Now
if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and
co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Paul presents 2 kinds of "heirship" here. The first one is being an heir of God because we are His children. The second kind is being a "co-heir with Christ" which is equivalent to reigning with Him from 2 Tim 2:12.
However, note that the second heirship is conditional: IF IF IF we share in His sufferings. This is equivalent to enduring from 2 Tim 2:12.
And, to "share in His glory" is an obvious equivalence to "reigning with Him" from 2 Tim 2:12.
If he had not repented, as Judas did not, he also would have died lost.
I don't believe that Jesus lied in John 10:28. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. I believe what Jesus said.
This brings us all the way back to the first point I responded to in this post. If you truly believe, then the love you have in response to the love you have received will drive you to do good deeds as the Father commands. Because He loved us, we love and obey Him.
What you may not realize is that you are insinuating that those who "truly believe" will automatically obey.
So then, those who have put their faith in Christ but struggle with sin, etc simply didn't believe "savingly" whatever that may mean.
Except the Bible does not teach that anywhere.
But if you do not obey, then you don’t really have love for the Father, you don’t have faith, and you don’t have the Holy Spirit.
Ther are no verses/passage that teach this. And it denies what Jesus said very clearly.