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What it means to have dead faith

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by BibleBeliever1611, Aug 16, 2021.

  1. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Who is alive from the dead, to hear the voice of the risen Lord, from the dead ?

    Then your life is an instrument of righteousness, presenting your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service..


    Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Please show me ANYWHERE ELSE where Scripture specifies that faith is belief in action.
    Of course. But show me the definition of faith that is "belief in action".

    No belief in action here. Faith is a conviction.

    Uh, no, it's not. It's something we trust in.

    In fact, the Bible both encourages and exhorts believers to ACT on their faith.

    If faith WAS "belief in action", then NONE of those verses would be meaningful.
     
  3. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Free: "In fact, the Bible both encourages and exhorts believers to ACT on their faith.

    If faith WAS "belief in action", then NONE of those verses would be meaningful."



    The first answer for Freegrace, is we are instructed to not use our liberty (freedom) for an occasion to the flesh, but to serve ( no freedom) one another in love..


    Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.





    Free: "But show me the definition of faith that is "belief in action"."




    Here is your definition.


    God is a Spirit.

    The Spirit of the Lord, rested on the Son of God, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

    We having the same Spirit of faith. ( gift of the Holy Ghost)

    Fruit of the Spirit if faith.

    We think soberly according as God has given to every man a measure of faith. 9 Spirit of faith)

    And that we may be delivered from the unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. ( men have faith in the flesh, where there is no truth)...




    John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

    2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

    Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.





    Through faith, the worlds were framed by the Word of God ( through the faith of Jesus Christ)

    God said, let there be light, and there was light...



    Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.






    Free: "If faith WAS "belief in action", then NONE of those verses would be meaningful."



    Faith, we have read, is Spirit, that is why it is now Holy faith, and why they now keep themselves in the love of God, as the Holy Ghost is given to them to have Holy faith with, and the love of God is shed into their hearts, as before this they could not believe in the love of the truth, both love and truth would be nonsense to them, by not having any love in them to understand what love is, by not having the Spirit of truth in them, to know what truth is, neither believing in the Holy Lord God, without Holy faith being given into them to understand/believe with, which is the gift of the Holy Ghost ( the purpose of the Spirit being given is so we can have the same Spirit of faith ( as Christ/Christs Spirit given, to call on the Lord with, in truth....


    Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
    21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.




    Here is why the man without the gift of the Spirit, to them all of the preaching of the Spirit, is foolishness ( Gods testimony in the Spirit, as the words of Jesus are SPIRIT).

    It does not enter into the heart of man ( to believe) as God reveals them ( to the ones He calls and gives the Spirit of faith to) by His Spirit.

    The natural man receives not, ( cannot believe in) the things of the Spirit of God, because they are Spiritually discerned.

    This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive ( cannot believe in) as it cannot know Him without the Spirit of God given, to know Him by which is why it is grace to whom the Lord will have mercy on..




    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
     
  4. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    Faith is not just a conviction, although that certainly is a part of it. Some translations of the Bible say that faith is a confidence and assurance, but that doesn’t fit with the rest of Heb 11. Faith is the evidence of that confidence. Faith is the substance of that assurance. As James says, faith MUST include action or it is dead and worthless; like a soulless body.

    That is not at all accurate.
    A person is a soul as well as the body, but in many places in Scripture the body and soul are talked about separately. The body is not alive without the soul, and neither is faith alive without action.
    We are being told in the passages you reference to make our faith “alive”, by putting action into it.

    As James says (and I paraphrase), You show me how alive you faith is without action (You cannot; it is dead), and I will show you how alive my faith is through my actions.
     
  5. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dead faith and then we do works doesn't give us living faith.

    Living faith leads us to doing works, not the other way around.

    Just a sidenote. :)
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Thank you for proving my point.

    None of this defines faith as "belief in action". Further, the fruit of the Spirit is actually "faithfulness", since ONLY believers can produce, in the filling of the Holy Spirit, faithfulness. Believers, BY DEFINITION, already have faith.

    All of these verses support the fact that believers are to act on their faith by deeds.

    Again, thank you.

    The most accurate word for "framed" is really restored. Go figure that one out. If you need some help, I'll be glad to assist.

    How do these verses deal with believers being urged, exhorted, commanded to demonstrate their faith by their works?

    This is one very long sentence, and frankly, doesn't make sense. Could you pare it down some so I can follow what you are trying to convey?[/QUOTE]
    If I commented on every verse you quoted, I would have to do it in several posts.

    So, to summarize, you actually supported my claim that believers are to demonstrate their faith by their works, which is exactly what James taught in ch 2.

    What you didn't do was prove the definition of "faith" is "belief in action".

    Our faith MUST BE demonstrated by our works. James' point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    No belief in action here. Faith is a conviction.
    Please quote supporting verses for your claim here.

    Yes. The word "substance" is the essence of something. Faith really means assurance.

    So, Arminians have a real problem since they believe that their salvation can be lost/etc by their own actions, as if Christ didn't die for every sin, or that their actions can trump Christ's work on the cross.

    No, he didn't say that at all. He was exhorting believers to demonstrate their faith by their works. As v.18 clearly indicates. btw, the quote marks are in error in most, or all, of the translations. The endquote should be at the end of the verse. iow, the "someone" says everything that follows in v.18.

    FreeGrace2 said:
    In fact, the Bible both encourages and exhorts believers to ACT on their faith.

    If faith WAS "belief in action", then NONE of those verses would be meaningful.
    It's quite clear in James 2:18 by moving the second quote mark to the end of the verse. In fact, the verse makes no sense when you leave the end mark where it is.

    While this is all true, it is irrelevant to the discussion.

    [QUTOE]We are being told in the passages you reference to make our faith “alive”, by putting action into it.[/QUOTE]
    No, we don't "make it alive by action". James' point was that WHENEVER one's faith is not being demonstrated in the presence of others, it isn't observable to them. So, if the "others" know that the person without works is a Chrstian, to THEM, his/her faith appears dead.

    It's just really sad how poorly James has been taught.

    And that is my point! The ONLY WAY to see a faith (living faith) is to see evidence of it, which is works.

    This idea that a believer without works that demonstrate their fatih isn't really a saved person is the height of silliness.

    Was Peter unsaved when he denied the Lord 3 times? Of course not.
     
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Very good point!! But that would be the conclusion the way so many people take James.

    Which is impossible. Works don't give us a living faith. Works DO demonstrate our faith.

    James' whole point was the believers' actions in front of others, as his example in 2:15,16 clearly portray.
     
  9. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    But I specifically pointed out where Paul told them to eat anything put in front of them without asking any questions and that they should only refuse to eat meat offered to idols if someone mentions that it was offered to an idol. So evidently Jezebel was teaching them to knowingly eat meat offered to idols.
     
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    So then God is leading a dead rabbit to repentance? That’s been the question you keep dodging the whole time.
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    If this is the way you see it then salvation comes before repentance. That’s incorrect since we have to repent and believe before we can receive the Holy Spirit and be saved. When the jailer asked Paul & Silas what must I do to be saved Paul’s answer was believe. Your saying a person must be saved in order to repent and believe but the scriptures specifically state over and over that we must repent and believe in order to be saved.
     
  12. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Proverbs 1:28 is not A message from God to man. The word “I” in that entire chapter refers to Solomon not God. Jesus specifically said “seek and you SHALL find, knock and the door WILL be opened”.
     
  13. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    That “way” is walking in unrighteousness as opposed to walking in righteousness. You can’t take single ambiguous verses out of context and use them any way you please. You have to present them in the context that they were being used.
     
  14. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    They were permitted to understand because “they had ears to hear”. They listened as opposed to those who don’t have ears to hear they aren’t interested in what Jesus had to say they only sought to condemn Him.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    But I’m verse 7 He made it clear that The Father will only grant what they ask
     
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Answer the question !
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Answer the question please !
     
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    A natural man isnt dead to the natural world friend, but to the Spiritual world and things pertaining to it, hes dead. Therefore his natural response to Spiritual realties will be either adversarial and with enmity, or mere superficially like the stony ground hearer who didnt really spiritually understand Matt 13:20-21

    20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

    21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

    That describes a dead faith hearer !
     
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Its called lining up scripture with scripture, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. The scripture is a spiritual reservoir. 2 Tim 3:16
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    You have it all wrong.

    John 5:25 shows that the spiritually dead DO hear and DO live. Why? Because it is those who hear and believe who are saved (have eternal life).

    Your Calvinistic influence has kept you from the truth of Scripture.

    Rom 10-
    13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

    Red words teach that one must first believe in Christ before they can call on Him.
    Blue words teach that no one can believe UNTIL they hear the gospel.
    Purple words teach that people won't hear UNTIL someone preaches to them.

    This is how spiritually dead men believe the gospel.

    They have to hear the message. Then they have to believe the message.

    John 5:25 refutes all your claims about spiritually dead people. They DO hear (some of them). And they DO live (eternally). Why? Because they have believed in Christ.

    Lazarus isn't an example because he was already a believer. Jesus was demonstrating His power to physically raise from the dead, not save people. Jesus didn't save Lazarus.

    Just read John 11:25-27
    25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
    26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
    27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

    This applied to Lazarus who was dead when this conversation occurred.

    Lazarus had already believed in Christ as the Messiah. He was already saved.

    Jesus brought him back physically from the dead to demonstrate His power over physical death.
     
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