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What it means to have dead faith

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by BibleBeliever1611, Aug 16, 2021.

  1. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Freegrace: "Why are you unable/unwiling to address my point?

    John 5:25 SAYS "the dead will hear".




    The dead do hear, because the living Lord Jesus Christ is in them to hear with.


    Nothing you say is scriptural, all that is shown says one thing, Christ was put to death in the flesh which is quickening by the Spirit.

    Those are the spirits in prison, in the prison of death ( all dead in sins before Christ calls us all)

    Now baptism saves us, to have a good conscience by the life and resurrection of and in Christ ( that is the dead hearing His voice, how and why)..


    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


    Now the law of that life ( in Christ Jesus) sets us free from the law of sin and death ( this is how the dead hear, nothing else is how the dead hear, so stop adding to Gods word or taking away)


    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


    Carnal mind is death ( in the flesh is dead and does not live)

    But to be brought out of the flesh( raised together from the dead with Christ) they receive the living Spirit of Christ, throuh belief in the words of Christ that are Spirit and life.

    If Christ does not dwell in them ( they are dead and are none of His)

    But if Christ goes into anyone by giving them the living faith of Christ ( only Christ is living, all else are dead) then the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness ( and then the dead hear the Son of God)..

    Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
     
  2. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Doug: " It is very clear for anyone with the discernment of the Holy Spirit that a man can come to believe the Gospel, be baptized into Christ (and thus be saved), and then turn his back on God, deny the faith"



    The faith as you say Doug, is the faith of Christ, how is it written the faith of Doug anywhere ?






    Doug: "Indeed it is a gift that we do not deserve. But we must meet the conditions God set for the reception of that gift. He put the gift out there for us, but we have to accept it through faith (our belief in action) to receive it (Eph 2:8-9)."




    Who said we have to accept the gift of the Spirit by faith?

    How is this anything to do with Dougs belief in action...


    All is by grace, nothing is not, we were poor, Christ made us rich.

    Rich in faith is His gift too.

    Ignore, I do not care, but you will answer on judgement day as you were told the testimony of Christ, right here and now.

    God has to commit to our trust the true ruches, which are the riches of the grace of Christ, we were poor ( not rich in faith 0 Christ gave us His faith, the faith of Christ saves man) and that is BY COMMITING TO OUR TRUST THE TRUE RICHES OF GOD WHICH IS HIS FAITH)..

    2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

    James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

    Luke 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?


    HOW DO YOU BOAST DOUG, THAT IT IS YOUR OWN FAITH ?

    No, it is Gods creation, in Christ Jesus ( that is the faith, Hos faith and His Spirit) or without the Spirit given by Christ, we can have no faith, as faith is Spirit ( of the Lord.).

    Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




    Doug: "I am a Christian. I follow the Christ, the Messiah, God.

    I do not know who Armin is, he did not die for me, nor is he my creator, and so I do not follow him"




    That is right, Christ died for us, to give us the Spirit, and faith is a Spirit, and faith is a fruit of the Spirit, on what basis do you Doug, consider you had it ALREADY?
     
  3. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    That was a very specific context, and it applied ONLY to those who Jesus addressed. The issue was the unbelievers who rejected Jesus as Messiah attributed His miracles to the devil. iow, they were so negative that even His miracles didn't move them. They were refusing to believe.

    Only those who SAW the miracles and attributed them to the devil were guilty of this sin.
    Wow. I would NEVER call the Bible "drivel". What's wrong with your attitude?

    If you think I made this up, please address specifically what isn't in Scripture.

    Who was Jesus addressing then?

    This is an example of real drivel. If there is Scripture that teaches that a person can lose their salvation, then just let's put this silly argument to rest by SHARING that Scripture.

    It doesn't take "discernment" to understand any of what you say. All it takes is having CLEAR AND UNAMBIGUOUS verses that say so. So, where are they?

    Please don't act like you have the corner on truth, any more than anyone else.

    If you have the truth, please share it.

    Your answer is basically a denial of what Jesus taught then.

    In John 5:24 He said those who believe HAVE (that means possess) eternal life. The example you just gave would have been given eternal life as a believer.

    In John 10:28 Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

    Your problem is between your drivel and what Jesus taught in very clear words.

    It isn't plural, as you opine. There is a single condition for receiving the gift of eternal life. That condition is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    An Arminian holds to the heresy that salvation can be lost.

    Ignorance doesn't remove guilt. Josephus Arminius taught that salvation can be lost.

    I'm glad to entertain you. However, why do you laugh at my point? When we believe in Christ, we are born AGAIN, or REBORN as God's children.

    Are you able to be unborn from your parents? No. Why would it be any different for a child of God? It isn't.

    So, just as a child cannot be UNborn of their parents, the same is true for God's children. They cannot UNborn themselves.

    Your parents are a PERMANENT relationship.

    The same is true of your Heavenly Father. You cannot undo it.

    Oh, good grief. Aren't you aware of WHY they will experience the second death? They didn't have eternal life.

    So your comments are irrelevant unless you have a clear verse where eternal life is removed.

    Please show me any verse that shows that eternal life can be lost, taken away, forfeited, or misplaced.

    But I know you can't because I know the Bible. It doesn't teach the heresy you promote.

    But go ahead and try to prove me wrong. I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Where do you get these things that aren't in the Bible? Show me any verse that says that Christ is in "dead" people.

    I've been quoting Scripture all along to show that my views are from Scripture.

    It seems you may be totally unfamiliar with the fact that the Bible uses "dead" or "death" in several different ways.

    It can refer to:
    1. physical death
    2. spiritual death
    3. loss of fellowship. Example is the prodigal son. His father described his prodigal as being dead. There was no fellowship.
    4. sexual death. Abraham is the example.

    It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who is so unfamiliar with basic doctrinal principles.

    You quoted 1 John 1:9 in your last post. You probably didn't know that confession of sin is to restore fellowship with the Lord.

    Huh.
     
  5. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Freegrace: "This is an example of real drivel. If there is Scripture that teaches that a person can lose their salvation, then just let's put this silly argument to rest by SHARING that Scripture."

    Freegrace: "Your answer is basically a denial of what Jesus taught then.

    In John 5:24 He said those who believe HAVE (that means possess) eternal life. The example you just gave would have been given eternal life as a believer.

    In John 10:28 Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish."


    Freegrace: "Please show me any verse that shows that eternal life can be lost, taken away, forfeited, or misplaced."






    I will show you verses.

    We saw predicted, the dishonour they will do on the Lord, and Jesus in John 8 confirms, they do dishonour the Son, but the Son honours the Father ( by doing all he commanded)..


    Psalm 69:19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee.

    John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.


    Then, we are told, all men should honour the Son, as the Father should be honoured. To dishonour the Son, is not to honour Him, and that is hearing the word of the Son now, to escape the condemnation ( caused by dishonouring God)..

    John 5: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


    In Romans 1, this continues, they dishonour their own bodies between themselves, and God gave them up to uncleanness, as they change the truth of God into a lie, serving themselves instead of the Lord..


    Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.



    John 10 says the same, how the ones who are not Gods, hear nothing of what is right, but Jesus gives eternal life to the ones who hear the way of righteousness ( because they follow it and do it to not perish instead, and be deceived by any men)..


    John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
     
  6. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Freegrace: "It can refer to:
    1. physical death
    2. spiritual death
    3. loss of fellowship. Example is the prodigal son. His father described his prodigal as being dead. There was no fellowship.
    4. sexual death. Abraham is the example."




    There is one death, all in Adam die, all in Christ are made alive..



    Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.




    Freegrace: "You quoted 1 John 1:9 in your last post. You probably didn't know that confession of sin is to restore fellowship with the Lord."


    Confession of sin is to forsake sin, or to not profit..


    Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

    Psalm 68:21 But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
     
  7. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    I can address all of the other in another post, but this is the core of the matter, so let’s start here.

    There is no opinion here. Only what Scripture clearly teaches.

    What is “belief”? Is it simply mental assent? Is it simply saying in your heart, “I think what the Bible says about Jesus is true.” And so God pours His salvation upon you in that instant, wherever you are?

    Let’s look at what Scripture says about that.
    First, James says that to believe, but to do nothing about it is worthless, because even the demons believe in God, but they won’t (or can’t) do anything in response to that belief.
    Second, In Heb 5:9, the author says that Jesus is the author of salvation. But he doesn’t stop there. He continues, “…to all who obey Him.” He is not the author of (does not give) salvation to those who do not obey Him.
    Third, all of the places in the NT that say “believe” are the Greek “pistis”. This is the Greek word meaning “faith”. That means that Scripture is not talking about simple mental assent; a mental exercise with no action. It is talking about an active, demonstrable, faith.
    Fourth, there are numerous places in the NT that say something other than belief/faith lead to salvation (not flow from salvation, but lead to it). If belief (mental assent) were the only thing necessary to receive salvation, then these passages are either unnecessary (at best) or lie (at worst). But since Scripture does not lie, and none of it is unnecessary, these things MUST be included in what leads to our reception of salvation.
    Fifth, there are two passages that detail the moment of salvation. Rom 6:1-11, and Col 2:11-13. Both of these two passages tell us that the Holy Spirit is the active agent. They both say that our sins are removed, and we are resurrected with Christ. And they both say that this occurs, not when we believe, but when we are baptized into Christ.
    Sixth, there are several other passages that tell us that we enter “into Christ” in baptism, that we are purified and made whole in water, etc.
    Seventh, while the focal point of Eph 2:8-9 is the Grace of salvation poured out on us, the passage is very clear that the conduit, or channel, through which that gift is received is through faith. That means that the faith through which grace flows must be in place before the grace can be received. And again, as James is so clear on, faith without action is not faith. It is dead, worthless, useless, and incapable of conducting grace to us.
     
  8. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    Yes. That is belief. The Scripture you offered next says so.

    That's right. Mere belief doesn't accomplish anything but Faith does.

    ...an even more emphatic assertion of the same point.

    Exactly. :oldthumbsup:
    No. It's necessary to keep these terms separate. Belief--we've already seen--doesn't save or necessarily lead to it. Faith does, and James was keen to make that very point in his epistle.
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Well, that will be interesting. If there are any, they will contradict what Jesus taught. At least I know what your view of the Bible is then.

    Not relevant to verses about losing salvation.

    Not relevant to verses about losing salvation.

    STILL not relevant to verses about losing salvation.

    This is one of the verses I have shared that prove that eternal life is given to those who believe, meaning WHEN they believe, since there are no verses that indicate in any fashion that eternal life is given some time after believing.

    And combined with John 10:28, it is crystal clear that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

    Once again, not relevant to verses about losing eternal life.

    Ditto.

    Please read esp v.27 and 28 again. In fact, please memorize them. And then point out any wording that shows that v.27 is in ANY WAY a condition for receiving eternal life.

    Rather, we find the condition for receiving eternal life is in John 5:24, which you quoted in this very post that I am responding to.

    Once again, please highlight, bold, or color the actual words that create a condition for receiving eternal life in v.27.

    Rather, it is John 5:24, which you just quoted that shows us the single condition for receiving eternal life, which is believing in Christ.

    You have failed to fulfill your claim above, which was this:

    "I will show you verses."

    No, you didn't show any verse that shows loss of salvation.
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    OK, I guess we're done then. I just gave you 3 ways the Bible uses "death" and you ignore all of them except spiritual death.

    I am glad you've bared your soul to show that you aren't interested in Scripture.

    So, we're done.

    More failure to grasp or comprehend Scripture. Just count the number of times John used the word 'fellowship' in the first chapter of 1 John, before he got to v.9.

    Again, I have no interest in trying to have a biblical discussion when there is no understanding of such basic priniciples on your side.
     
  11. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    So what you’re saying is that Rom 10:9-10 is not Scripture?
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    Nope. I didn't say that. Maybe you're thinking of someone else.

    But Romans 10:9-10 leaves us in no doubt that mere belief and faith are not the same thing. Verse ten couldn't be clearer about faith being the vehicle for salvation. You seemingly don't want to allow that belief alone is able to save. Even the demons believe who Christ was...and they aren't saved. So I don't get why you are insistent upon running the two terms together or treating the words as if the one is a synonym for the other?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  13. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    I am not saying they are the same. On the contrary, as I have said many times, faith is belief in action. Without action faith is worthless (does not exist).

    That was my point with Rom 10:9-10. Living, active faith must precede our reception of salvation, because faith is the conduit through which we receive grace.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    It isn't plural, as you opine. There is a single condition for receiving the gift of eternal life. That condition is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    That's what I've already shown you. John 5:24 shows when a person possesses eternal life. John 10:28 shows the result of having eternal life.

    No, that is too vague to equal saving faith. To believe or trust, there HAS TO BE both an OBJECT of belief, and a PURPOSE for believing.

    The Bible says a lot of things about Jesus. Must one believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in order to be saved? No. Etc, etc, etc.

    In order to express saving faith one MUST believe that:
    Jesus IS the Messiah (Christ)
    He IS the Son of God
    He DID die on the cross for your sins
    He gives eternal life to those who trust in Him for salvation.

    Nothing less that this.

    I just showed you.

    James wasn't even discussing saving faith, or how to be saved, or how to maintain salvation. He was discussing how to demonstrate your faith to others, which is by deeds.

    Given EVERY other verse on salvation/eternal life, this verse means to obey His command to believe in Him.

    No, that is what James was discussing. Every believer must have a demonstrable faith.

    See the list above for what constitutes saving faith.

    No, there isn't any such verses. But go ahead and find any and quote them.

    None of this. It just shows that you aren't understanding them.

    Please answer this: is trust a mental assent or an action?

    You might want to consult a dictionary before answering.

    So far, I've responded to the 4 points and showed that you are mistaken.

    This isn't even about saving faith.

    Still not saving faith.

    Actually, it is Eph 1:13 that teaches by believing we are placed "in Christ".

    Faith is trust. Pure and simple. God wants us to believe what He says.

    All you are saying here is that one must trust in order to be saved by grace.

    James was not discussing saving faith at all.
     
  15. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    Faith is faith. You are making the point that “saving faith” is faith in the deity, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. That is a good distinction.
    But it does not change the fact that faith is still belief in action.

    Yes, a demonstrated faith is alive. An undemonstrative faith is dead/worthless/meaningless.

    No.
    Belief is NOT the only thing Scripture says leads to salvation.
    Rom 10:9-10 - Confession
    Mark 16:16 - Baptism
    Acts 3:19 - Repentance

    There are many other passages that back these up, but even once said in Scripture is enough to make it so.

    Trust - the firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of something or someone

    But let me ask you, where in the definition of faith given in Heb 11:1 is the word trust?

    It is not there. That is because faith is not trust”. Faith is evidence and substance of what is not seen but only hoped.

    Also,
    Rom 6:3 says we were baptized into Christ.
    Col 2:12 says we were baptized into Christ
    Gal 3:27 says we were baptized into Christ

    So we’re we in Christ immediately when we believed? No.
    We were put “in Christ” when we, through faith, we’re baptized into His death, and the Holy Spirit resurrected us “in Christ”.
     
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    No, that is too vague to equal saving faith. To believe or trust, there HAS TO BE both an OBJECT of belief, and a PURPOSE for believing.
    What does that mean? Is is is. So what?

    It seems you didn't even read ALL of what I listed. I didn't stop with His death, burial and resurrection. Why did you stop there?

    Don't you believe that a person must believe that Jesus died for them and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him? The Bible clearly teaches all this.

     
  17. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    God does not show wonders to the dead, nothing can be known in the dark ( of death) no righteousness in the land of forgetfulness.

    The dead praise not the Lord, but from the time the Lord gives, we Bless the Lord.

    No man lives unto himself, we live unto the Lord, Christ died and rose again, to be the Lord of us, when we live unto the Lord, and when we die unto the Lord.

    The dead are Blessed which die in the Lord, from when the Lord gave it....






    Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
    11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
    12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?


    Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
    18 But we will bless the Lord from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the Lord.

    Romans 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
    8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
    9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.




    The dead know nothing at all, all is perished from them, they have nothing more in any thing that is done under the sun.

    The dead shall live, to awake and sing, that dwell in the dust ( in death)

    Lazarus slept ( dead) Christ awakened him.

    Wherefore He says, awake thou that sleeps, and arise from the dead, Christ is giving you light ( to live as the life is in Him and HIs life is the light of men)...



    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

    John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

    Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.




    The dead bury their dead ( and remain dead/never had life given into them, which is the Spirit of life, Christ)


    God, is the God of the living, not of the dead.


    The brother was dead, and is alive again, was lost, but was found ( by the Shepherd who searched and found the sheep)




    Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

    Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
    32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


    Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.





    The people are not persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    The dead hear ( His sheep hear His voice) and because He gave them ears to hear with ( and a heart to perceive with) they shall live..



    Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.





    Jesus is the resurrection ( Jesus Christ's Spirit in us) and believing in Him makes the dead, live.

    David was dead, David spoke of Christ, who would not leave his soul in hell, ( by the Spirit of Christ in the prophets) by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead away from corruption ( of the grave)

    Jesus ordained of God, ( the Spirit of life in Christ to rise from the dead with) to be the judge of the quick and the dead.

    A resurrection of the dead, of the just and the unjust.

    Christ the first to rise from the dead ( to not die again) by showing the light of life to the Gewntiles ( His light and His Spirit shown in them)

    Man walked in darkness, ( in death) and following Jesus ( risen with Him) we have the light of life ( which is the light of men)..




    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
    43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

    John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.



    God quickens the dead, calling us as though we are, when we were not.

    Many were dead ( in sins) and Christ the gift of grace is life from the dead ( by the Spirit of life or nothing lives)

    Death reigned, but they receive abundance of grace which is the gift of righteousness to live by Jesus Christ( by the life of the Son in us) by the faith of Jesus Christ ( NOT OUR OWN WORTHLESS DEAD FAITH)



    Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.





    We are buried instantly with Christ baptized into His death, and Christ was raised up by glory of the Father ( we are raised up by the glory of the Son of the Spirit of life which raises us up) to walk in newness of life.

    Then are dead to sin, and alive to God through Jesus Christ ( not through ourselves or own faith or anything)

    We were held dead, and are delivered ( by Christs Spirit in us) to serve in NEWNESS OF SPIRIT.

    When Christ is then in you, your body is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life ( the Spirit is what made us alive from the dead) and that is because of righteousness ( the righteous rising of the Lord from the dead to destroy him who had the power of death for us)..




    Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

    Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.





    Israel ate manna and were dead. The bread from Heaven, is to eat and not die.

    Christ is the living bread, for a man to eat and live, for ever ( with Christ in them to give them life from the death they ate)

    Christ gave His flesh so we can eat that bread, and live for ever.

    The Son lives by the Father, as the Son was sent by the LIVING FATHER, so when we eat the Son ( the bread of His body given for us) we are then living by Him ( the Son)..




    John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

    John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.




    So, the resurrection from the death we were in, we were sown in corruption, we are raised ( by Christ) in incorruption.

    In Adam all died, now ALL ARE MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST..

    In Adam we were a living soul, but the last Adam was made ( by the Spirit of Christ giving true life) a quickening Spirit..



    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.




    Then the first man of the earth does earthly, but the second man is the Lord from Heaven ( Jesus Christ in man for man to live)

    That is putting on the image of the Heavenly, the new man renewed in knowledge after the image of who created us( of God)

    This is being born of God, born again not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the WORD OF GOD, WHICH LIVES AND ABIDES FOREVER IN US. ( then we went from dead to living by the living God in us)..




    1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

    1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.




    Then we were quickened by Jesus, when we were dead in sins.

    This is grace saving man ( all is by God or it is not grace)

    Us, being dead in sins, are quickened together with Christ ( by Christ being given into us when we were dead)

    As those who live in pleasure ( self seeking deceivers) are dead while they live.

    God is not a God of the dead, all live unto Him ( by the Spirit of the living God in them)




    Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

    Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.





    The ( living) blood of Christ through the Spirit purges our ( dead) conscience from the dead works we were held in ( in death)

    Abel obtained witness from God, and by it, Abel spoke although dead ( by having the gift of grace and righteousness by the Spirit of Christ given into him)

    The body without spirit is dead, God withdraws His spirit and man dies..


    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.





    Abel's blood then spoke, as the blood is the life ( when the spirit of life is in the blood)

    God brought back our great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the everlasting covenant ( as His Spirit and blood are ever lasting/eternal)

    This is how the blood of Jesus speaks better things than Abel, as it is eternal life speaking from the grave for us..




    Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

    Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

    Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.




    The gospel was preached to the dead, to live according to God in the Spirit. ( in His Holy Spirit gift to call on the Lord with)

    Jesus, the first begotten of the dead, loved us to wash us from our sins ( died and rose to give the Holy Spirit or we remain in unbelief and death in sins, the Spirit gives all)

    Christ is He that lives ( He alone is life) He was dead but then is alive for evermore. These are the keys of death He holds ( He goes to the death we were in and releases us by life entering into us, which is Christ)

    Jesus ( who has the seven Spirits of God which are all life) knows we have our own name, that we are living, but we are dead ( without His name written in our foreheads, which is the living name of Christ coming into us for us to live unto Him)..




    1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
     
  18. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    OK, ok, I get it. You don't understand John 5:24 then. But Jesus said "the dead WILL HEAR", so YES God DOES show wonders to the dead. They CAN hear His voice.
     
  19. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    Sorry about that.
    There is only faith. There is not a “saving faith” and a “not saving faith”. Now, faith in the wrong thing does not lead to salvation. But faith in God does lead to salvation.

    I did read it all. But true faith believes in the fullness, completeness, and infallibility of Scripture. That being the case, the “death, burial, and resurrection” of Christ incorporates all of His life, acts, promises, blessings, and curses. If you have faith in Christ, you have faith in all of who He is and why He said.

    Indeed I do. But not to those who just “believe” in (give mental assent to) Jesus. As I have pointed out, salvation is not given to those who do nothing but give mental assent to Christ. Heb 5:9 is very clear that salvation through Christ is only to those who obey Him. And as I pointed out, many passages tell us what obedience it is that constitutes the faith that leads to salvation.
    Rom 10:9-10 - Confession leads to salvation
    Mark 16:16 - Baptism required for salvation
    Acts 3:19 - Repentance leads to forgiveness

    There are many other passages that back these up, but even once said in Scripture is enough to make it so.

    Consider:
    Jesus is the Fountain. Salvation is the “water”that flows from Him to us. Faith is the conduit that takes the “water” of salvation and flows it into our life.
    If faith has no action, it is a dead (broken pipe), and cannot carry the salvation to us.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I would say faith in the wrong thing IS a "not saving faith". But maybe that's just quibbling a bit.

    Seems everyone goes to James 2:19 and claims there is a "faith that does not save" using what the demons believe as an example. However, there is NO mention of "faith" in that verse. Instead, James is simply noting that the demons DO believe in monotheism. They reason they do believe that is because they were all created IN heaven and witnessed the Triune God. So they KNOW (believe) from experience.

    That's a far cry from trust, which is what saving faith in to humans. We have to take God at His word when putting our trust in His Son for what His Son did for us.

    Saving faith is fully trusting in Christ's work alone to save us. All we can do is receive it through trust/faith in Him.

    Do you have a verse that includes all this in what saves?

    [QUTOE] That being the case, the “death, burial, and resurrection” of Christ incorporates all of His life, acts, promises, blessings, and curses.[/QUOTE]
    Uh, no. It doesn't. And that is NOT the case, as you presume.

    Did you mean "what He said"? The "why" doesn't make sense.

    Anyhoo, this doesn't make sense. No one can absorb everything He said. And much of what He said isn't related to salvation at all. So you are adding to Scripture.

    FreeGrace2 said:
    Don't you believe that a person must believe that Jesus died for them and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him? The Bible clearly teaches all this.

    I've already explained that you you've got just 1 verse about "obey". However, there are a multitude of verses that say only believe or faith. So you are misunderstanding Heb 5:9.

    But, for clarification, please define what you think "obey" means in Heb 5:9.

    Consider:
    Jesus is the Fountain. Salvation is the “water”that flows from Him to us. Faith is the conduit that takes the “water” of salvation and flows it into our life.
    If faith has no action, it is a dead (broken pipe), and cannot carry the salvation to us.[/QUOTE]
    You are sounding as though it is your own "act of faith" that ultimately saves you.

    That couldn't be more wrong.

    btw, since you use water as an example of salvation, let's see what Jesus said and meant when He spoke to a woman at Jacob's well.

    John 4-
    7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink(aorist)?”
    10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink (aorist), you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
    13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks (present) this water will be thirsty again,
    14 but whoever drinks (aorist) the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
    15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give (aorist) me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

    I've emphasized key verbs here.

    The aorist tense basically means a "point in time". iow, there is no sense of continuing action.
    The present tense means action that occurs "right now" or "currently" or "presently".

    So, in v.7 Jesus uses the point in time for a drink from the woman.
    In v.10 Jesus again uses the aorist to emphasize a point in time action.
    But, in v.13 Jesus uses the present tense for drinking literal water.
    Then, in v.14 Jesus again uses the aorist tense for the "water that He gives". iow, a "drink" from His "water" (gospel) results in eternal life.
    So, the woman responds with an aorist tense for receiving the "drink that Jesus gives".

    Salvation comes from a point in time belief. Many people claim that one's faith MUST CONTINUE in order to continue to be saved. That would mean that our faith is the ultimate savior of our soul. Which is not biblical.

    Jesus made the point that from the MOMENT one believes (point in time) they have eternal life.

    Which is exactly what He said in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    We are saved from the MOMENT we become believers and we possess eternal life.

    And John 10:28 says recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

    Obedience is commanded for those who already believe.

    If your obedience is required for your salvation, then you are simply saving yourself by your own actions.
     
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