What it means to have dead faith

[Brightfame52]

You have it all wrong.

John 5:25 shows that the spiritually dead DO hear and DO live. Why? Because it is those who hear and believe who are saved (have eternal life).

Your Calvinistic influence has kept you from the truth of Scripture.

Rom 10-
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Red words teach that one must first believe in Christ before they can call on Him.
Blue words teach that no one can believe UNTIL they hear the gospel.
Purple words teach that people won't hear UNTIL someone preaches to them.

This is how spiritually dead men believe the gospel.

They have to hear the message. Then they have to believe the message.

John 5:25 refutes all your claims about spiritually dead people. They DO hear (some of them). And they DO live (eternally). Why? Because they have believed in Christ.

Lazarus isn't an example because he was already a believer. Jesus was demonstrating His power to physically raise from the dead, not save people. Jesus didn't save Lazarus.

Just read John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

This applied to Lazarus who was dead when this conversation occurred.

Lazarus had already believed in Christ as the Messiah. He was already saved.

Jesus brought him back physically from the dead to demonstrate His power over physical death.

You were shown the truth friend.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You were shown the truth friend.

So you do not believe what Jesus said in John 5:25 then?

The dead WILL HEAR. But you claim they don't. That they have to be made alive first.

Well, even though you don't believe what Jesus said, He is right. Your claim is not.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you do not believe what Jesus said in John 5:25 then?

The dead WILL HEAR. But you claim they don't. That they have to be made alive first.

Well, even though you don't believe what Jesus said, He is right. Your claim is not.

Didnt I already speak to you about Jn 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The dead hearing is a miracle of resurrection. Just like Lazarus. In addition it wasnt for everyone dead to hear, but certain dead ones like Lazarus was a partcular person Jesus Christ quikened.

Do you think all the dead heard Christs voice when lazarus did ?

 

[Doug Brents]

So, Arminians have a real problem since they believe that their salvation can be lost/etc by their own actions, as if Christ didn't die for every sin, or that their actions can trump Christ's work on the cross.

Is it not a mandate of God that we repent? Must we not live righteousness lives striving not to sin to be a Christian?

If, as you say, there is no action I can take that would lose me my salvation, then why must I live for Christ after I am saved? Why can’t I believe in Christ, become saved, and then live however I want. Why can’t I go enjoy as much of this life as I want: raping, killing, stealing, living all the most pleasurable ways I can find? I am still saved if I do so, right?

No! To do so would make me, as Paul puts it, “disqualified for the prize”. We must remain faithful until the end. We must endure. We must “finish the race”, and “keep the faith”.

Let me ask you, what does Rom 8:39 mean? Does it mean we cannot lose our salvation? NO!!
It says that nothing can remove us from the LOVE of God. But does the love of God equal salvation? No. God loved us when we were sinners. He loved us when we were lost. So He can still love us when we fall from grace and lose the salvation He gave us.

While this is all true, it is irrelevant to the discussion.

It most certainly is relevant. You say that action is not included in faith, but is a byproduct of faith. That would be like saying the soul is not part of a man, but is the byproduct of a man.

This idea that a believer without works that demonstrate their fatih isn't really a saved person is the height of silliness.

Was Peter unsaved when he denied the Lord 3 times? Of course not.

What did Jesus Himself say? “If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father.”

If he had not repented, as Judas did not, he also would have died lost.

This brings us all the way back to the first point I responded to in this post. If you truly believe, then the love you have in response to the love you have received will drive you to do good deeds as the Father commands. Because He loved us, we love and obey Him.
But if you do not obey, then you don’t really have love for the Father, you don’t have faith, and you don’t have the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Didnt I already speak to you about Jn 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The dead hearing is a miracle of resurrection.

Read it again please. Jesus said THE DEAD WILL HEAR.

Your "version" is "the dead will be raised and THEN hear."

Do you see the difference? I quoted Jesus directly. You twisted His words to mean something else.

[QUTOE] Just like Lazarus. In addition it wasnt for everyone dead to hear, but certain dead ones like Lazarus was a partcular person Jesus Christ quikened.[/QUOTE]
You keep adding to Scripture. Where did Jesus say "the certain dead will be resurrected so then they can hear"?

[QUOT]Do you think all the dead heard Christs voice when lazarus did ?[/QUOTE]
Jesus named Lazarus specifically. So, no. What's your point?

Just quit twisting what Jesus said so you can change what He meant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So, Arminians have a real problem since they believe that their salvation can be lost/etc by their own actions, as if Christ didn't die for every sin, or that their actions can trump Christ's work on the cross.

Is it not a mandate of God that we repent? Must we not live righteousness lives striving not to sin to be a Christian?

First, your rapid fire questions don't address what I said.

Second, the Greek word for 'repent' means to change the mind. In order to believe something that you didn't believe before, you MUST change your mind.

If, as you say, there is no action I can take that would lose me my salvation, then why must I live for Christ after I am saved?

This is an excellent question; one that every believer should be asking. Sadly, though, your question reveals that you do believe that you can do something that Christ didn't die for. There is nothing He left out.

There are basically 2 reasons to live for Christ after salvation.

1. God warns of His discipline, which Heb 12:11 describes as PAINFUL for those who are rebellious or disobedient. The Bible has given plenty of examples of how God disciplines His children.

2. God promises reward and blessing for obedient children.

So you will be motivated by either or both of these 2 reasons. Or those brain dead types will just go on living their lives the way they want to and be miserable, even if you can't see their misery. They may appear quite happy/satisfied to others. But we can't see their souls and feel their suffering.

Why can’t I believe in Christ, become saved, and then live however I want.

There is nothing stopping you. But you've now learned about what God warns and promises. So go and knock yourself out.

btw, this same principle was expressed even back in the OT.

Isa 1:18-20
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

So, the red words in each verse indicate a choice of every believer.
The blue words in each verse show the RESULTS or consequences of those choices.

What sounds good to you? This is where I got the "2 reasons" from.

Why can’t I go enjoy as much of this life as I want: raping, killing, stealing, living all the most pleasurable ways I can find?

Becuase of reason #1. You won't be happy or enjoy life, as you so erroneously presume.

I am still saved if I do so, right?

Once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God.

Don't you believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life? They shall never perish.

Why don't you believe what Jesus said?

No! To do so would make me, as Paul puts it, “disqualified for the prize”.

Correct! But not because of what you think. Paul was speaking of eternal rewards. Not salvation.

We must remain faithful until the end. We must endure. We must “finish the race”, and “keep the faith”.

How come you don't see your own works involved in enduring for salvation? We endure for reward.

2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

What do you think of the bolded words?

Let me ask you, what does Rom 8:39 mean? Does it mean we cannot lose our salvation? NO!!
It says that nothing can remove us from the LOVE of God. But does the love of God equal salvation? No. God loved us when we were sinners. He loved us when we were lost. So He can still love us when we fall from grace and lose the salvation He gave us.

If God lets us lose salvation, then all His promises are bogus.

But, let's examine the previous verse:
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

Now, what do you suppose Paul meant by "the future"? It should be obvious that he meant that there is NOTHING in the future that would separate us from God's love.

That means even the second soil (parable) who only "believed for a while" which was future to when he initially believed won't lose salvation.

But the bottom line for Arminians is that believing that salvation can be lost simply do not believe what Jesus said about eternal life.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe (present tense) have (possess - present tense) eternal life. This means they possess eternal life WHEN they believe.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, from the moment of faith in Christ, that person shall never perish because they possess eternal life. And eternal life cannot die.

Very simple.

It most certainly is relevant. You say that action is not included in faith, but is a byproduct of faith.

If this was true, then WHY all the commands for holy living? They wouldn't be needed.

That would be like saying the soul is not part of a man, but is the byproduct of a man.

Not even close to being relevant.

What did Jesus Himself say? “If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father.”

Didn't you read the whole verse? Apparently not.

2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; Other translations have "deny" instead of "disown". Deny is the correct word.

What Paul is teaching is that those who endure IN the faith will be rewarded by reigning with Him in His Millennial kingdom.

However, if we deny Him, like Peter did 3 times in a row, He will deny us the privilege and reward of reigning with Him.

Now, v.13 - if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

So, what does this mean? All believers have the Holy Spirit IN them. So even those who are faithless, God CANNOT deny Himself. Therefore, all believers cannot be disowned.

We find the same teaching in Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Paul presents 2 kinds of "heirship" here. The first one is being an heir of God because we are His children. The second kind is being a "co-heir with Christ" which is equivalent to reigning with Him from 2 Tim 2:12.

However, note that the second heirship is conditional: IF IF IF we share in His sufferings. This is equivalent to enduring from 2 Tim 2:12.

And, to "share in His glory" is an obvious equivalence to "reigning with Him" from 2 Tim 2:12.

If he had not repented, as Judas did not, he also would have died lost.

I don't believe that Jesus lied in John 10:28. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. I believe what Jesus said.

This brings us all the way back to the first point I responded to in this post. If you truly believe, then the love you have in response to the love you have received will drive you to do good deeds as the Father commands. Because He loved us, we love and obey Him.

What you may not realize is that you are insinuating that those who "truly believe" will automatically obey.

So then, those who have put their faith in Christ but struggle with sin, etc simply didn't believe "savingly" whatever that may mean.

Except the Bible does not teach that anywhere.

But if you do not obey, then you don’t really have love for the Father, you don’t have faith, and you don’t have the Holy Spirit.

Ther are no verses/passage that teach this. And it denies what Jesus said very clearly.

 

[Brightfame52]

Read it again please. Jesus said THE DEAD WILL HEAR.

Your "version" is "the dead will be raised and THEN hear."

Do you see the difference? I quoted Jesus directly. You twisted His words to mean something else.

[QUTOE] Just like Lazarus. In addition it wasnt for everyone dead to hear, but certain dead ones like Lazarus was a partcular person Jesus Christ quikened.

You keep adding to Scripture. Where did Jesus say "the certain dead will be resurrected so then they can hear"?

[QUOT]Do you think all the dead heard Christs voice when lazarus did ?[/QUOTE]
Jesus named Lazarus specifically. So, no. What's your point?

Just quit twisting what Jesus said so you can change what He meant.[/QUOTE]
I have already dealt with that with you, two or three times.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Freegrace: "None of this defines faith as "belief in action". Further, the fruit of the Spirit is actually "faithfulness",

since ONLY believers can produce, in the filling of the Holy Spirit, faithfulness. Believers, BY DEFINITION, already have faith."







It is faith, and this proves all comes by the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is love, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.

The Spirit is given to every man to profit with what the Spirit gives them.

For by one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom, to another the word of knowledge, by the same Spirit, to another faith, by the same Spirit.

Think soberly, according as God has given to every man his measure of faith ( which is also faithfulness).

Having gifts ( of the same Spirit) differring according to the grace that is given to us, we do so according to the proportion of faith ( that is given to every man and is a gift and a fruit of the Spirit)



Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

 

[prophecy_uk]

Freegrace: "This idea that a believer without works that demonstrate their fatih isn't really a saved person is the height of silliness.

Was Peter unsaved when he denied the Lord 3 times? Of course not."



Yes the height of foolishness is amazing.

Peter had no Spirit yet, as the Lord was not risen and all were then dead in their sins, until Christ takes them away onto His cross, everybody knows that.


That is why, without the Spirit the body ( all before Christ/this body) is dead, the same as Peter transformed by the renewing of the Holy Ghost ( given into him, to never deny Christ again in works ( as the antichrist spirit would teach) and as James confirms, our faith is in vain if it is without works that do not deny Christ ( they are required to be made perfect) and not as vain man teaches, that we work on it ( it is the Lord that worked all in us by His perfect faith of Christ given to some..

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[prophecy_uk]

BNR: "If this is the way you see it then salvation comes before repentance. That’s incorrect since we have to repent and believe before we can receive the Holy Spirit and be saved. When the jailer asked Paul & Silas what must I do to be saved Paul’s answer was believe. Your saying a person must be saved in order to repent and believe but the scriptures specifically state over and over that we must repent and believe in order to be saved."





Salvation is not the sheep calling themselves, but the Shepherd calling them.

As Jesus confirms, that the sheep hear His voice.

His voice are, His words, they are Spirit and life.

To natural man, they are foolish, as they are Spiritually discerned.

That is seen in Apostle Paul and all the Apostles, Jesus specifically called them, they did not chose Him He told them all.

Repentance therefore, is the gift of God, all is the gift of God, nothing a man can show is from himself, all men are faithless, as also confirmed, none sought the Lord, as none do, and why Jesus said to many disciples, you cannot believe unless it is given to you to believe.




John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?


2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[prophecy_uk]

BN: "They were permitted to understand because “they had ears to hear”. They listened as opposed to those who don’t have ears to hear they aren’t interested in what Jesus had to say they only sought to condemn Him."






They were permitted to understand because they already hear His voice, as spoken of the sheep.



John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:




Because He knows them and chose them ( all are chosen by God)..




Psalm 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

Psalm 105:6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Psalm 105:26 He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen.

Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Acts 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.







BN: "But I’m verse 7 He made it clear that The Father will only grant what they ask"


John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.



They are granted to ask by being Born again, as told in 1 John 5, according to the will of God, as all are chosen by God, or not chosen ( as nobody hears the message now, while I am speaking the word, or who agrees, without contradicting so far)....


1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Read it again please. Jesus said THE DEAD WILL HEAR.

You keep adding to Scripture. Where did Jesus say "the certain dead will be resurrected so then they can hear"?

Didn't you read what I wrote? Just look above.

As to who was adding to Scripture, this is what YOU wrote:
"Just like Lazarus. In addition it wasnt for everyone dead to hear, but certain dead ones like Lazarus was a partcular person Jesus Christ quikened."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace: "None of this defines faith as "belief in action". Further, the fruit of the Spirit is actually "faithfulness",

since ONLY believers can produce, in the filling of the Holy Spirit, faithfulness. Believers, BY DEFINITION, already have faith."







It is faith, and this proves all comes by the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is love, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.

The Spirit is given to every man to profit with what the Spirit gives them.

For by one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom, to another the word of knowledge, by the same Spirit, to another faith, by the same Spirit.

Think soberly, according as God has given to every man his measure of faith ( which is also faithfulness).

Having gifts ( of the same Spirit) differring according to the grace that is given to us, we do so according to the proportion of faith ( that is given to every man and is a gift and a fruit of the Spirit)



Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

You still haven't proven from Scripture that faith is belief in action.

Scripture teaches that those with faith OUGHT to act in accordance with their faith.

That's what the commands are about.

 

[Brightfame52]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Read it again please. Jesus said THE DEAD WILL HEAR.

Didn't you read what I wrote? Just look above.

As to who was adding to Scripture, this is what YOU wrote:
"Just like Lazarus. In addition it wasn't for everyone dead to hear, but certain dead ones like Lazarus was a particular person Jesus Christ quickened."

I took time to explain, and you just flip it off !

 

[Doug Brents]

The Greek word for 'repent' means to change the mind. In order to believe something that you didn't believe before, you MUST change your mind.

Not just a change of mind so that you understand something you didn’t before. Repent is a complete direction change because of what you now understand. It is a change in lifestyle, behavior, attitude, and loyalty.
Repentance is a change from worldly living to Godly living.

This is an excellent question; one that every believer should be asking. Sadly, though, your question reveals that you do believe that you can do something that Christ didn't die for. There is nothing He left out.

There is the sin against the Spirit (Matt 12:31-32). There is also crucifying the Son after we have accepted Him (Heb 6:4-6).

There are basically 2 reasons to live for Christ after salvation.

1. God warns of His discipline, which Heb 12:11 describes as PAINFUL for those who are rebellious or disobedient. The Bible has given plenty of examples of how God disciplines His children.

2. God promises reward and blessing for obedient children.

So you will be motivated by either or both of these 2 reasons. Or those brain dead types will just go on living their lives the way they want to and be miserable, even if you can't see their misery. They may appear quite happy/satisfied to others. But we can't see their souls and feel their suffering.

My question was rhetorical. Clearly Christ offers both reward and punishment. Some run toward the reward, and some run away from punishment.

But my point is that your doctrine that we cannot fall from grace removes the punishment from the equation. If, after I believe, there is no way to lose salvation, then there is no threat of punishment, or loss of the reward, to keep me from continuing in a sinful life.

btw, this same principle was expressed even back in the OT.

Isa 1:18-20
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

So, the red words in each verse indicate a choice of every believer.
The blue words in each verse show the RESULTS or consequences of those choices.

What sounds good to you? This is where I got the "2 reasons" from.

Indeed, and these passages, along with the many passages in the NT, tell us that we must remain faithful and endure to the end to receive the crown of glory. If we fall away we lose the crown. We won’t receive the prize.

Once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God.

No. You can divorce God, break the covenant, and lose the prize (Heaven).

Don't you believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life? They shall never perish.

Why don't you believe what Jesus said?

I do believe every Word He said. And in the parable of the soul He tells us that many will fall away. Two of the four seeds is received, sprouts, and grows (salvation), but does not produce fruit because the person falls away. Only one seed does not result in salvation (the first).

Correct! But not because of what you think. Paul was speaking of eternal rewards. Not salvation.

Salvation IS the eternal reward. He is talking about a single thing, THE PRIZE (salvation), not a group of things.

How come you don't see your own works involved in enduring for salvation? We endure for reward.

2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

What do you think of the bolded words?

Again, this goes back to man’s responsibility to endure. If our actions are righteous our reward will be Heaven. If our actions are evil our reward will be Hell.

If God lets us lose salvation, then all His promises are bogus.

But, let's examine the previous verse:
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

Now, what do you suppose Paul meant by "the future"? It should be obvious that he meant that there is NOTHING in the future that would separate us from God's love.

His LOVE does not equal Salvation.
He loved us when we were still lost, and He will continue to love us if we fall away. But that doesn’t mean He will save us anyway.

But the bottom line for Arminians is that believing that salvation can be lost simply do not believe what Jesus said about eternal life.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe (present tense) have (possess - present tense) eternal life. This means they possess eternal life WHEN they believe.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, from the moment of faith in Christ, that person shall never perish because they possess eternal life. And eternal life cannot die.

Very simple.

That assumes that eternal life cannot be lost. Yes, when you are baptized (not when you believe), you receive salvation and the promise of eternal life when we die, if we remain faithful for the rest of our life.

2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; Other translations have "deny" instead of "disown". Deny is the correct word.

What Paul is teaching is that those who endure IN the faith will be rewarded by reigning with Him in His Millennial kingdom.

Several issues with this statement. First, we are already in the Kingdom (that is the Church). Second, the millennium will take place in Heaven (not on Earth), because the Earth will have already been destroyed completely (2 Pet 3:10, Rev 20:10). But all of that is for a different thread, so we won’t get into it more here.

What does it mean for us if Christ denies us before the Father? It means we are not His (Christ’s), and we will be thrown out of Heaven with the rest of the goats (into Hell).

We find the same teaching in Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

But you ignore the last half of the verse that again tells us that we are only heirs IF we share in His suffering (endure).

Paul presents 2 kinds of "heirship" here. The first one is being an heir of God because we are His children. The second kind is being a "co-heir with Christ" which is equivalent to reigning with Him from 2 Tim 2:12.

Heir to God is one thing. Co-heir with Christ simply puts us on an equal footing with Christ in terms of our right to be in Heaven.

However, note that the second heirship is conditional: IF IF IF we share in His sufferings. This is equivalent to enduring from 2 Tim 2:12.

Heirship in total is conditional. Not just being co-heir with Christ.

I don't believe that Jesus lied in John 10:28. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. I believe what Jesus said.

Agreed, so long as he endures.

What you may not realize is that you are insinuating that those who "truly believe" will automatically obey.

So then, those who have put their faith in Christ but struggle with sin, etc simply didn't believe "savingly" whatever that may mean.

Except the Bible does not teach that anywhere.

On the contrary, it does teach that when we are saved, our love and appreciation for His forgiveness will drive us to do good works for Him. All will continue to struggle with sin, as Paul did his whole life, but as long as we continue to love and strive toward Christ, walking in the Light the best we can, with the help of the Spirit, we overcome and be rewarded.

There are no verses/passage that teach this. And it denies what Jesus said very clearly.

Ahh, but there are.
John 14:23
1 John 2:3-5
1 John 5:2-3
John 14:21-24
Matt 25:34-40

 

[BNR32FAN]

A natural man isnt dead to the natural world friend, but to the Spiritual world and things pertaining to it, hes dead. Therefore his natural response to Spiritual realties will be either adversarial and with enmity, or mere superficially like the stony ground hearer who didnt really spiritually understand Matt 13:20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

That describes a dead faith hearer !

No that describes a person who fell away because the parallel verse in Luke specifically states that “they believe for a while”.

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Answer the question please !

Yes he was spiritually dead just like every other believer was. This is irrelevant to my question about Romans 2:4-5 since my question involves God actually making efforts towards bringing the person to repentance and the person’s condemnation is the result of their refusal to cooperate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Its called lining up scripture with scripture, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. The scripture is a spiritual reservoir. 2 Tim 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Again this verse doesn’t say you can take any particular statement from the scriptures and use it any way you want regardless of the context it’s being used in. Again your quoting a scripture and using it to support something that it is clearly not even talking about. Your not “lining up” anything your taking single sentences and implying that they mean things that are not even mentioned anywhere in the entire chapter.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Paul is telling them not to allow themselves to walk in sin because they are a servant of the one whom they serve. Either a servant of God leading to life or a servant to sin (satan) leading to death.

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12-16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This message is very similar to Ephesians 4 & 5 written to “the Saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ” who have been “sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption”. He makes it clear that no one living a sinful way of life will enter the kingdom of Heaven because the wrath of God will fall upon all who are disobedient.

“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He’s not finished with the message yet.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Those who continue to grieve the Holy Spirit are sons of disobedience.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I took time to explain, and you just flip it off !

You just flipped off my explanation. John 5:25 is very clear. THE DEAD WILL HEAR.

Your take on the issue is that "the dead will be made alive and THEN hear". Which isn't biblical. As I've shown.