20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[Spiritual Jew]

Learn to distinguish between your interpretation of scripture, and what scripture says.

Obviously, you should choose to follow your interpretation instead of others. But never forget its only your interpretation.

When did I say otherwise? Can you try to get over this and stop bringing this up all the time? I've already said that what I share is my interpretation and not a fact. So, just remember that, okay? I shouldn't have to spell it out every time. You obviously don't like it when someone is very confident about their view, but that shouldn't be the case. It doesn't mean someone is stating their interpretation as a fact.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I made no mention of any "third group", I said the group that are deemed to be sheep, will enter the 1000 year reign as mortals who will still have children.

Because you are Amill, naturally, you will not accept this since you believe there is no 1000 year rule of Christ on Earth, after the 2nd coming.

People can give you scripture but if you want to reject their interpretation because it does not line up with your belief, that is fine.

But learn to be humble and recognize that you interpret scripture differently from others, rather than keep shouting "there is ZERO scripture for your beliefs but I have for mine!"

You seem to have missed that the sheep will inherit "eternal life" at that time.

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Instead of inheriting eternal life at that time, you have the sheep inheriting a temporal kingdom as mortals. But to inherit eternal life implies that they are inheriting immortality, so it lines up with what Paul taught about believers inheriting the kingdom of God in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I have no idea why Amills are so unhappy about this reality in the millennial reign. You can still sacrifice animals to remember the perfect work of Christ on the cross.

But that is not what the prophecy itself says would be the purpose of the animal sacrifices and sin offerings. Have you never read this:

Ezekiel 45:15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord God. 16 All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel. 17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

It does not say their purpose would be "to remember the perfect work of Christ on the cross" as you say. Instead, it says they would be "to make reconciliation for the house of Israel". Hasn't Christ already done that with His sacrifice on the cross? Of course He has. You're trying to change the scripture to fit your view.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are misrepresenting what pretrib, premil teaches - pretrib, premil is NOT saying second and third coming. That is your twisting. Please stop twisting.

How is he twisting what pretrib/premil teaches?

Pretrib/Premil teaches that the following two passages refer to two different events.

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Both of these passages refer to the coming of Christ. But pretrib/premil sees them as being separate events. So, how can you deny that pretrib/premil teaches a second (1 Thess 4:14-17) and third (Matt 24:29-31) coming of Christ?

 

[Douggg]

Christ will hear the sinner's prayer to receive Him.

Yes, but I am asking you, who are the Jews praying to?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Israel, the Jews, are God's chosen people because God has attached His good, righteous, and true, Holy Name to Israel and the children of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

They are not yet saved though at the time of Gog/Magog attack.

What makes you saved and have eternal life? It is because Jesus has attached His name to you when you embraced Him as your Savior.

What about the many unbelieving Jews who have died the past 2,000 years or so. They were God's chosen people? If not, then you saying "Israel, the Jews, are God's chosen people" is clearly not true. It is only those who have faith, whether Jew or Gentile, who are God's chosen people. The New Testament teaches that repeatedly.

 

[Douggg]

How is he twisting what pretrib/premil teaches?

Pretrib/Premil teaches that the following two passages refer to two different events.

Yes, pre-trib, pre-mil teaches those as two different events.

1 event, coming for the rapture/resurrection, but not coming down to earth, and not coming where every eye with see him.

The other event in Matthew 24:30b is Jesus's Second Coming, His Return back down to earth. And coming with his saints, which will include them raptured before the great tribulation starts.

The twisting is making a false claim that pre-trib, pre-mil calls those a second and third coming. Also, in the critique of the pre-trib, pre-mil view it is a false hood to call those a second and third coming of Christ back down to earth.

 

[Douggg]

What about the many unbelieving Jews who have died the past 2,000 years or so.

At the Great White Throne Judgement.

It going to depend. On whether or not they as individuals had been presented enough testimony about Jesus - to have reached the point of accountability.

If God determines that they have - then they will be judged accordingly.

If God determines that they have not - then God judges them on the basis of their works and if they would have embraced Jesus. The same can be said for all peoples of the world. Like native Americans in pre-Columbus times.

 

[jgr]

Yes, but I am asking you, who are the Jews praying to?

I asked you if they're praying the sinner's prayer to Christ to receive Him.

If they're not, and they aren't, then to whom they are praying is irrelevant, because their prayers are of no avail.

You're the Jewish expert here.

I don't know whom they're praying to. Do you?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, pre-trib, pre-mil teaches those as two different events.

1 event, coming for the rapture/resurrection, but not coming down to earth, and not coming where every eye with see him.

The other event in Matthew 24:30b is Jesus's Second Coming, His Return back down to earth. And coming with his saints, which will include them raptured before the great tribulation starts.

The twisting is making a false claim that pre-trib, pre-mil calls those a second and third coming. Also, in the critique of the pre-trib, pre-mil view it is a false hood to call those a second and third coming of Christ back down to earth.

Show me where he said they believe in a second and third coming to earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

At the Great White Throne Judgement.

It going to depend. On whether or not they as individuals had been presented enough testimony about Jesus - to have reached the point of accountability.

If God determines that they have - then they will be judged accordingly.

If God determines that they have not - then God judges them on the basis of their works and if they would have embraced Jesus. The same can be said for all peoples of the world. Like native Americans in pre-Columbus times.

What are you talking about? I'm talking about Jews who have rejected Jesus. You think they will get a second chance at the GWTJ? Their names would not be in the book of life, right? What does Revelation 20:15 says about what will happen to those whose names are not written in the book of life?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul taught that Revelation was a book of recaps?

The book of Revelation wasn't even written yet when Paul wrote his letters, so that's a pretty ridiculous question for you to ask.

Paul taught the Second Coming had already happened?

No, of course not. I have never said that the second coming has already happened. You interpret what others believe about as well as you interpret scripture (not well at all). Why are you asking me ridiculous questions that don't have anything to do with what I believe?

 

[Douggg]

I asked you if they're praying the sinner's prayer to Christ to receive Him.

If they're not, and they aren't, then to whom they are praying is irrelevant, because their prayers are of no avail.

You're the Jewish expert here.

I don't know whom they're praying to. Do you?

It is relevant because the Jews are not the heathen. The heathen are the Godless gentiles in the nations.

The point I making to you is the Jews aren't Godless. They are God-fearing and have a strong desire to keep the Torah. However, they are not right with God because they don't embrace Jesus.

They believe in the God of the Bible who made an everlasting covenant with them. And the God of the Bible is who they pray to.

They are not saved by that covenant, but they can be righteous (not perfectly righteous because they don't have Jesus's perfect righteousness imputed to them), if they keep the two laws that Jesus said upon which all the laws of Moses rest.

The Jews are not to be put on a pedestal, but they shouldn't be vilified either. Most were born into a religious system that has for 2000 years perfected its arguments against Christianity and Jesus, as much as Christianity has perfected its argument in favor of Jesus and Salvation.

The end times will see the Jews, corporately speaking, turn to Jesus, receive Salvation, and inherit the Kingdom of God, and be in right standing with God.

 

[DavidPT]

I don't know whom they're praying to. Do you?

You're an intelligent person. Why don't you?

Let's assume that when they pray to God, God does not hear their prayers because of their rejection of His Son. That is not what is in question though, does God even hear their prayers. What's in question then, what Douggg was inquiring about, where it seems like that has went over your head for some reason, who do these Jews think they are praying to? Do they think they are praying to the one true God, the God of Abraham, or do they think they are praying to a God not even recorded in their Bibles, the old testament?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What did Satan have that was taken away?

The power to keep a vast majority of people in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death because of not having any hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The Gentiles had no hope until Jesus died for the sins of the world in order to bring the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

 

[Douggg]

What are you talking about? I'm talking about Jews who have rejected Jesus. You think they will get a second chance at the GWTJ? Their names would not be in the book of life, right? What does Revelation 20:15 says about what will happen to those whose names are not written in the book of life?

I told you what I thought. If you think an 8 year old kid hears the gospel, but doesn't accept Jesus at time, and dies a few weeks later - that he is going to be cast into the lake of fire - that's your opinion, but not mine. I wrote it is going to depend on - and I gave the circumstances. God is going to determine if they had reached the point of accountability or not.

Here are the verses in Revelation 20.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Better take a look at the vials of God's wrath in Revelation.

The great tribulation is in the bible, in Matthew 24:15-31, ending with Jesus's Second Coming.

Jesus Returns and rules the nations with a rod of iron.

Can you show me where the Olivet Discourse teaches that? I see that it says He will come "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and I see that He judges people when He returns (Matt 25:31-46) which results in some people inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them "from the foundation of the world" and the rest being cast into "everlasting fire", but I don't see any description of Him ruling the nations there.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I told you what I thought. If you think an 8 year old kid hears the gospel, but doesn't accept Jesus at time, and dies a few weeks later - that he is going to be cast into the lake of fire - that's your opinion, but not mine. I wrote it is going to depend on - and I gave the circumstances. God is going to determine if they had reached the point of accountability or not.

Here are the verses in Revelation 20.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

But I'm not asking you about that. You seem to be trying to change the subject here and I wonder why.

I'm asking you about Jews in the past 2,000 years who knew of Jesus but chose not to believe in Him. What do you believe will happen to them? Before, you said they are God's chosen people so do you believe they will avoid being cast into the lake of fire just based on being Jews?

 

[jgr]

It is relevant because the Jews are not the heathen. The heathen are the Godless gentiles in the nations.

The point I making to you is the Jews aren't Godless. They are God-fearing and have a strong desire to keep the Torah. However, they are not right with God because they don't embrace Jesus.

They believe in the God of the Bible who made an everlasting covenant with them. And the God of the Bible is who they pray to.

They are not saved by that covenant, but they can be righteous (not perfectly righteous because they don't have Jesus's perfect righteousness imputed to them), if they keep the two laws that Jesus said upon which all the laws of Moses rest.

The Jews are not to be put on a pedestal, but they shouldn't be vilified either. Most were born into a religious system that has for 2000 years perfected its arguments against Christianity and Jesus, as much as Christianity has perfected its argument in favor of Jesus and Salvation.

The end times will see the Jews, corporately speaking, turn to Jesus, receive Salvation, and inherit the Kingdom of God, and be in right standing with God.

What do you think is God's response to the prayer of anyone who rejects His Son?

 

[jgr]

The point I making to you is the Jews aren't Godless.

1 John 2
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

The point John is making to you is that they are Godless.

Fatherless and Sonless.

Heathen.