Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

[Guojing]

You misunderstand me ... the New Covenant has begun, ... but has yet to reach its fulfillment ...

I read the Bible literally there.

If it has already begun, then everything in Hebrews 8:8-12 would be reality now.

 

[A_Thinker]

I read the Bible literally there.

If it has already begun, then everything in Hebrews 8:8-12 would be reality now.

That might be your view, but I see more evidence of God working through process in Scripture.

So ... when your children were born, ... did they arrive fully grown and mature ?

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 7:7-8 has nothing to do with Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18.
You are missing the main point, which is reckoning/accounting/imputing to, between the time of Adam and Moses (Romans 5:18).

Romans 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

This verse specifically states that it was even speaking about those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, so Paul did not limit what he was speaking about to only the sin of Adam. In Romans 3:20, God's law was given to give us knowledge of sin, so that is relevant context to any verse that speaks about the law being given, and the fact that Paul was speaking about death reigning from Adam to Moses, does not mean that what I said isn't also true

And you contradict Paul in that statement.

Rather, what I said was in accordance with Paul's statement.

There was no curse of death (Galatians 3:10) based on the Mosaic Law before the Mosaic law.
There can be no sin against the Mosaic law and its curse of death before that law is given,
and yet the curse of death reigned, not based on the Mosaic Law.
So what violation of law caused the death of all men?
The curse of death was based on Adam's disobedience to the law, "Thou shalt not eat of it,"
and its curse of death (Genesis 2:17).

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is therefore also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so the Mosaic Law simply revealed what has always been eternally true, while if the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change when the Mosaic Law was given, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. The curse of death has always been based on what is against God's eternal righteousness, and sinning against God's righteousness before the Mosaic Law was given was the same as it was after it was given.

That's your rule, not Paul's.

That's basic common sense. If there is nothing that defines what sin is, then saying "sin was in the world before the law was given" is gibberish that communicates nothing, so you are making what Paul said out to be gibberish, while I think that there is sense to what Paul was trying to communicate.

And that would be your rationale. . .in disagreeement with Paul regarding what that sin was
(Romans 5:18).

I said nothing in disagreement with Romans 5:18 and you should not interpret the verses that I've cited as contradicting Romans 5:18. In Romans 5:14 and many other verses that I cited, it is abundantly clear that there was sin in the world between Adam and Moses other than Adam's sin, though it is because of his sin that other types of sin entered the world.

 

[Clare73]

Romans 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

The Greek reads: "even over the (ones) not sinning on the likeness of the transgression of Adam,"

Th NIV translates: "even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam,"

Your translation is a gloss of Romans 5:14, and is the source of your misunderstanding.

 

[Guojing]

That might be your view, but I see more evidence of God working through process in Scripture.

So ... when your children were born, ... did they arrive fully grown and mature ?

The New Covenant is not like the birth of a child.

When the law is written in our hearts, it is written immediately.

If we can still sin now, it proves one thing, the law is yet to be written in our hearts. There is no process involved.

But as the other readers also agreed, in the 2nd coming of Christ, the Law will be written in the hearts of everyone from the House of Israel and Judah, and they will be unable to sin.

 

[Torah Keeper]

I think people need to realize what you call the Old Testament, includes numerous covenants. Did the covenant of the rainbow get abolished? Does that mean there will be another global flood?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Paul(or the Hebrews author), was talking about what we must do to be saved. This was because there is an actual group of people who believe we must keep the Torah to be saved. Paul merely replaced this belief of good deeds vs bad deeds with the Gospel.

Yeshua Himself said in Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

So which is it? Abolished? Or fulfilled?(Completed). These are not synonyms.

 

[Guojing]

I think people need to realize what you call the Old Testament, includes numerous covenants. Did the covenant of the rainbow get abolished? Does that mean there will be another global flood?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Paul(or the Hebrews author), was talking about what we must do to be saved. This was because there is an actual group of people who believe we must keep the Torah to be saved. Paul merely replaced this belief of good deeds vs bad deeds with the Gospel.

Yeshua Himself said in Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

So which is it? Abolished? Or fulfilled?(Completed). These are not synonyms.

As discussed here, the Law will be written in the hearts of the Jews from Israel when the New Covenant begins for the nation (Hebrews 8:8)

So no, the Law will not be abolished for Israel.

 

[Soyeong]

The Greek reads: "even over the (ones) not sinning on the likeness of the transgression of Adam,"

Th NIV translates: "even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam,"

Your translation is a gloss of Romans 5:14, and is the source of your misunderstanding.

I was quoting from the ESV, though there is not a significant change in meaning between that and the NIV:

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Verse 12 states that all sinned and as verse 14 states in regard to their sin that it was not breaking a command as did Adam, so their sin was not the same as the sin of Adam, which is essentially the same meaning as what I quoted from the ESV. Arguably the ESV for verse 14 more clearly conveys that meaning of the text because the NIV can give the false impression that is speaking about people who had no sin, which would contrary to the context of verse 12 saying all hand sinned. So what do you think Paul was communicating by saying that they has all sinned?

 

[A_Thinker]

If we can still sin now, it proves one thing, the law is yet to be written in our hearts. There is no process involved.

Of course there is a process ... the NT describes it ... and labels it GROWTH.

What do you think the NT writers mean when they speak of GROWING IN CHRIST ?

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Philippians 1:9 9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, ...

1 Peter 2:2-3 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation — if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Ephesians 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, ...

Hebrews 5:12-14 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as carnal, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still carnal.

 

[A_Thinker]

Yeshua Himself said in Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

So which is it? Abolished? Or fulfilled?(Completed). These are not synonyms.

Replaced - for believers
In force - for non-believers

 

[Guojing]

Of course there is a process ... the NT describes it ... and labels it GROWTH.

What do you think the NT writers mean when they speak of GROWING IN CHRIST ?

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Philippians 1:9 9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, ...

1 Peter 2:2-3 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation — if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Ephesians 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, ...

Hebrews 5:12-14 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as carnal, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still carnal.

So, is it hard for you to believe that, while we are "growing in the Lord", that means the Law is currently not written in our hearts?

 

[A_Thinker]

So, is it hard for you to believe that, while we are "growing in the Lord", that means the Law is currently not written in our hearts?

So ... is it your view that NONE of God's Law ... is currently written in believer's hearts ?

 

[Guojing]

So ... is it your view that NONE of God's Law ... is currently written in believer's hearts ?

If its written "in our hearts", it means we won't sin.

Just knowing what is right or wrong, according to the Law, does not mean the law is "written in our hearts".

 

[Clare73]

I was quoting from the ESV, though there is not a significant change in meaning between that and the NIV: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Verse 12 states that all sinned and as verse 14 states in regard to their sin that it was not breaking a command as did Adam, so their sin was not the same as the sin of Adam,

Keeping in mind what Peter said regarding Paul: "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand," (2 Peter 3:16).

In light of all the NT, (e.g., Romans 4:3-5), you are missing Paul's point here.

Paul is setting up his contrasting parallels between the first Adam and the second Adam, in terms of imputation/accounting to mankind of sin and of righteousness.
His first point is demonstration of the first Adam's sin being accounted/imputed to all those of/in Adam.
Hs second point is the second Adam's righteousness being accounted/imputed to all those of/in Christ, the second Adam.

He is not saying that everyone sinned by breaking the law. . .because there was no law to sin against, and therefore no sin would have been taken into account/charged against them (v.13).

He is saying that because everyone died, they therefore had to have sinned (Romans 6:23). Yet, what was their sin when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, no sin to account/charge against them?
He concludes that it was the sin of Adam imputed/accounted to and charged against them, which is why they all died (Romans 5:18).

In Romans 5:18-19, he then draws his contrasting parallels between the sin/guilt which is accounted/imputed to those in the first Adam,
and the righteousness/justification which is accounted/imputed to those in the second Adam, Christ.

 

[A_Thinker]

If its written "in our hearts", it means we won't sin.

This is your claim.

I don't know that you've ever provided evidence for your claim ...

 

[ralliann]

I think people need to realize what you call the Old Testament, includes numerous covenants. Did the covenant of the rainbow get abolished? Does that mean there will be another global flood?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

As you said, the law includes numerous covenants. The covenant made with their fathers cannot be abolished by the law of the latter covenant made at Sinai.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling < abolishing>of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

The law of faith is not abolished, but established in Christ. Which law was from the beginning.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The covenant made with Abraham was according to the law of faith...

Paul(or the Hebrews author), was talking about what we must do to be saved. This was because there is an actual group of people who believe we must keep the Torah to be saved. Paul merely replaced this belief of good deeds vs bad deeds with the Gospel.

Yeshua Himself said in Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

So which is it? Abolished? Or fulfilled?(Completed). These are not synonyms.

The law of faith is not abolished, but God is faithful just and true to keep the covenant made to our father Abraham.

Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Which covenant is through the kings promised Abraham and Sarah.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }

Yes, we in Christ establish the law

 

[Clare73]

I think people need to realize what you call the Old Testament, includes numerous covenants. Did the covenant of the rainbow get abolished? Does that mean there will be another global flood?

Old Testament = Old Covenant = Sinaitic Covenant.
The two Testaments of the Bible are based on God's two dispensations for his people, one of law and one of grace.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We establish the law (Decalogue) on its proper footing, not as a means of righteousess/salvation, but as a means of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

Paul(or the Hebrews author), was talking about what we must do to be saved. This was because there is an actual group of people who believe we must keep the Torah to be saved. Paul merely replaced this belief of good deeds vs bad deeds with the Gospel.

Paul did so according to God's dealing with Abraham, where his faith, rather than his good deeds, was credited to him as righeousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3).

Yeshua Himself said in Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

So which is it? Abolished? Or fulfilled?(Completed). These are not synonyms.

It is both, the ceremonial laws and regulations are fulfilled in Jesus Christ--the sacrifices, the cleansings of defilement, the atonement for God's people, etc.--and, therefore, abolished (Ephesians 2:15), just as
the Old (Sinaitic) Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13),
there is a superior new Mediator of a superior New Covenant (Hebrews 7:22, 8:6) and
a superior guarantee (Hebrews 7:20-22) in a superior new Priesthood (Hebrews 7:12, 20-21).

 

[A_Thinker]

If its written "in our hearts", it means we won't sin.

What scripture leads you to such a belief ?

 

[Soyeong]

Keeping in mind what Peter said regarding Paul: "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand," (2 Peter 3:16).

In light of all the NT, (e.g., Romans 4:3-5), you are missing Paul's point here.

Paul is setting up his contrasting parallels between the first Adam and the second Adam, in terms of imputation/accounting to mankind of sin and of righteousness.
His first point is demonstration of the first Adam's sin being accounted/imputed to all those of/in Adam.
Hs second point is the second Adam's righteousness being accounted/imputed to all those of/in Christ, the second Adam.

He is not saying that everyone sinned by breaking the law. . .because there was no law to sin against, and therefore no sin would have been taken into account/charged against them (v.13).

He is saying that because everyone died, they therefore had to have sinned (Romans 6:23). Yet, what was their sin when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, no sin to account/charge against them?
He concludes that it was the sin of Adam imputed/accounted to and charged against them, which is why they all died (Romans 5:18).

In Romans 5:18-19, he then draws his contrasting parallels between the sin/guilt which is accounted/imputed to those in the first Adam,
and the righteousness/justification which is accounted/imputed to those in the second Adam, Christ.

God's nature is righteous and the basis for sin is what is against God's nature. God's law do not cause something to become sinful, but simply give us knowledge of the things that are against God's nature that are sinful. Adam's sin opened the way for all of the things that are against God's nature to enter into the world and through doing those things all have sinned, so death came to all people. So Paul was saying that all sinned through acting against God's nature before the law that gave us knowledge of what sin is was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account before God's law was given to them. Because everyone died, they had to have sinned by acting against God's nature, which is what Adam's sin made the way for, however, they were not guilty of the same sin as Adam because they had not broken a command like he did. In regard Romans 5:18, one man's sin resulted in condemnation for all people, and this is because all of the things that are against God's nature entered into the world was the result of Adam's sin. If the whole world had been condemned because of Adam's sin instead of because of the sin that entered into the world as the result of Adam's sin, then there would be no point in Paul saying that sin is not counted where there is no law. Receiving the gift of righteousness is receiving the gift of being made into someone who acts in accordance with God's righteousness in accordance with what would be revealed when God's law was given.

 

[Clare73]

God's nature is righteous and the basis for sin is what is against God's nature. God's law do not cause something to become sinful, but simply give us knowledge of the things that are against God's nature that are sinful. Adam's sin opened the way for all of the things that are against God's nature to enter into the world and through doing those things all have sinned, so death came to all people. So Paul was saying that all sinned through acting against God's nature before the law that gave us knowledge of what sin is was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account before God's law was given to them. Because everyone died, they had to have sinned by acting against God's nature, which is what Adam's sin made the way for, however, they were not guilty of the same sin as Adam because they had not broken a command like he did.

In regard Romans 5:18, one man's sin resulted in condemnation for all people, and this is because all of the things that are against God's nature entered into the world was the result of Adam's sin. If the whole world had been condemned because of Adam's sin instead of because of the sin that entered into the world as the result of Adam's sin,
then there would be no point in Paul saying that sin is not counted where there is no law.

I"m assuming when you say "the sin that entered the world as the result of Adam's sin," you mean the sin of those from Adam to Moses.

That is precisely why he says sin is not accounted where there is no law.
Those from Adam to Moses were not charged with any sin of their own, because there was none to be charged with based on the law. . .yet they died because of sin. . .whose sin? . .not their own. . .there was none without the law to sin against. . .the only chargeable sin against the law in the world was Adam's sin against the command (law).

Therefore, the sin charged to those in Adam was the imputing/accounting of Adam's sin to them, just as God imputes/accounts Christ's righteousnes to us through faith. . .as shown in God accounting righteousness to Abraham because of his faith, not because of his works.

You've missed the parallels of accounting/imputing of sin and righteousness.

Receiving the gift of righteousness is receiving the gift of being made into someone who acts in accordance with God's righteousness in accordance with what would be revealed when God's law was given.

That is not the meaning of the gift of righteousness received in justification through faith. . .which is simply being declared "not guilty". . . and, therefore, in right standing with God's justice; i.e., a righteous standing--no longer God's ebnemy, but not yet a reformed righteous character.

A rightous character is the rightousness of santification through obedience in the Holy Spirit throughout the Christian life.