Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

[Guojing]

What scripture leads you to such a belief ?

Do you also believe we cannot sin after the 2nd coming of Christ?

Could Jesus choose to sin during the 4 Gospels?

 

[Soyeong]

I"m assuming when you say "the sin that entered the world as the result of Adam's sin," you mean the sin of those from Adam to Moses.

That is precisely why he says sin is not accounted where there is no law.
Those from Adam to Moses were not charged with any sin of their own, because there was none to be charged with based on the law. . .yet they died because of sin. . .whose sin? . .not their own. . .there was none without the law to sin against. . .the only chargeable sin against the law in the world was Adam's sin against the command (law).

Therefore, the sin charged to those in Adam was the imputing/accounting of Adam's sin to them, just as God imputes/accounts Christ's righteousnes to us through faith. . .as shown in God accounting righteousness to Abraham because of his faith, not because of his works.

You've missed the parallels of accounting/imputing of sin and righteousness.

In order to correctly understand what Romans 5 is saying, we need to recognize the historical reality that between the time of Adam and Moses there are examples of people who knew what sin is through knowing God's laws, who did what is righteous in obedience to them, and who sinned by breaking them, and who were judged for breaking them. Paul should not be interpreted as speaking against other parts of the Bible, yet you refuse to acknowledge this.

If it hadn't been for Adam's sin, then there wouldn't have been people committing sins like murder or adultery between the time of Adam and Moses, so all of the types of sin entered into the world as the result of Adam's sin, and death came to all people because all people had committed these types of sins. It has always been sinful to commit sins like murder or adultery (Genesis 4:7, Genesis 39:9), so they are not things that became sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been the case, and people who did those things before the law was given was how sin was in the world before it was given. It says that that all sinned, so all had sin of their own, though those who have no law because it had not yet been given to them were not charged. For as long as God's nature has been eternal there have been laws for how to act in accordance with His nature, but those laws have now always been given to people, and sin is in the world by people acting against his nature.

Therefore, the sin charged to those in Adam was the imputing/accounting of Adam's sin to them, just as God imputes/accounts Christ's righteousnes to us through faith. . .as shown in God accounting righteousness to Abraham because of his faith, not because of his works.

That is not the meaning of the gift of righteousness received in justification through faith. . .which is simply being declared "not guilty". . . and, therefore, in right standing with God's justice; i.e., a righteous standing--no longer God's ebnemy, but not yet a reformed righteous character.

A rightous character is the rightousness of santification through obedience in the Holy Spirit throughout the Christian life.

So it is not speaking about imputing us with Adam's sin, but about the result of what entered the world because of his sin. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:4-5). In James 2:21-23, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so Abraham was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage. So it is false for you to deny that Abraham was counted as being righteous because of his works. Abraham did not have a righteousness that was apart from his obedience to God's commands and neither do we.

 

[Clare73]

In order to correctly understand what Romans 5 is saying, we need to recognize the historical reality that between the time of Adam and Moses there are examples of people who knew what sin is through knowing God's laws, who did what is righteous in obedience to them, and who sinned by breaking them, and who were judged for breaking them. Paul should not be interpreted as speaking against other parts of the Bible, yet you refuse to acknowledge this.

That Paul reveals there was no law of God given before Sinai is uncontestable.
That Paul reveals that sin is violating the law is uncontestable.
That Paul reveals where there is no law, there can be no sin charged, because there is no violation of law (sin) to charge anyone with, is uncontestable.

Those are facts clearly stated by Paul which you fail to reconcile with his statement that
"nevertheless, sin was in the world."

Their reconciliation was presented to you, bringing the facts into agreement with themselves,
which is the first rule for correctly interpreting Scripture

Your argument is based in denial of what the NT clearly states.

Your argument is contra-NT, and denies the NT word of God written.

 

[Soyeong]

That Paul reveals there was no law of God given before Sinai is uncontestable.
That Paul reveals that sin is violating the law is uncontestable.
That Paul reveals where there is no law, there can be no sin charged, because there is no violation of law (sin) to charge anyone with, is uncontestable.

Those are facts clearly stated by Paul which you fail to reconcile with his statement that
"nevertheless, sin was in the world."

Their reconciliation was presented to you, bringing the facts into agreement with themselves,
which is the first rule for correctly interpreting Scripture

Your argument is based in denial of what the NT clearly states.

Your argument is contra-NT, and denies the NT word of God written.

Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

2 Peter 2:6-8 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

There are man verses that demonstrable that there were laws of God given prior to Sinai and that people were judged for not following them, so you should not interpret Paul in a way that denies this historical reality. In order for Paul to be intelligibly communicating something by stating "sin was in the world", there needs to be a shared understanding of what "sin" means, and whatever that shared understanding is, it is instructions in regard to what sin is, so to say that sin is in the world is to say that there were violations of those instruction in the world, and to say that "all have sinned" is to say that all have acted in violation of those instructions. If there is nothing that defines what sin is, then it to say "sin was in the world" would be just as meaningless as saying "seuildskfhsh was in the world". Words need to have meaning in order to communicate, this is not rocket science, so I am not the one who is failing to reconcile "sin was in the world". I am not denying or arguing against anything in the NT, but am simply arguing against you robbing that verse of context and meaning.

 

[A_Thinker]

Do you also believe we cannot sin after the 2nd coming of Christ?

Could Jesus choose to sin during the 4 Gospels?

Jesus didn't violate the will of His Father (i.e. sin).

Apart from Him, every other human being has violated God's will, is violating God's will, or will violate God's will ... and so, covenant relationship between God and human beings mandates forgiveness.

As such, forgiveness is a central feature of the New Covenant ...

Hebrews 10

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus didn't violate the will of His Father (i.e. sin).

Apart from Him, every other human being has violated God's will, is violating God's will, or will violate God's will ... and so, covenant relationship between God and human beings mandates forgiveness.

As such, forgiveness is a central feature of the New Covenant ...

Hebrews 10

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Are you answering my question with a yes or no?

 

[A_Thinker]

Are you answering my question with a yes or no?

I answered your question referring to Christ.

As to your question about sin in heaven (i.e. in ongoing relationship with God), ... I don't know.

Now, are you going to provide scripture to support your belief that "having God's laws written on our hearts" means that we won't sin ?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The law of Moses ... cannot save. At its best, it can only point to Christ ...

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

There are four "LAWS of MOSES" moral (ten commandments), Civil, dietary, and ceremonial. All spoken by GOD to Moses.

Heb 10 that you quoted is about the ceremonial law which is plainly stated that Jesus Christ fulfilled the ceremonial law as verse eight states.

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

However the other three laws are not shadows of future events and do not have the ability to be fulfilled/completed as did the ceremonial law, they can only be kept which is what the bible/Jesus teaches.

Matthew 4 King James Version
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Psalm 89 King James Version
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Deuteronomy 5:29
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Many more examples of this in the bible

 

[Guojing]

I answered you question referring to Christ.

As to your question about sin in heaven (i.e. in ongoing relationship with God), ... I don't know.

Now, are you going to provide scripture to support your belief that "having God's laws written on our hearts" means that we won't sin ?

My question about Christ is whether he could sin, i.e whether he was impeccable to sin.

I was not asking whether he did sin, all of us know he didn't, which is what you answered with.

Once you answer that, my answer to your question will manifest naturally.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Clare73 said: ↑

That Paul reveals there was no law of God given before Sinai is uncontestable.

I beg to disagree with the above statement

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Genesis 4:6-8 King James Version

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


Exodus 20
King James Version

20 And God spake all these words, saying,
13 Thou shalt not kill.

slew = Kill

Thou shalt not kill = sin

 

[A_Thinker]

My question about Christ is whether he could sin, i.e whether he was impeccable to sin.

I was not asking whether he did sin, all of us know he didn't, which is what you answered with.

Once you answer that, my answer to your question will manifest naturally.

I actually don't know if Jesus could have sinned or not. If He couldn't have, ... the temptations He faced seem to be a bit of a wash ...

 

[A_Thinker]

There are four "LAWS of MOSES" moral (ten commandments), Civil, dietary, and ceremonial. All spoken by GOD to Moses.

Heb 10 that you quoted is about the ceremonial law which is plainly stated that Jesus Christ fulfilled the ceremonial law as verse eight states.

How do you support this from scripture ?

How do you discern one type of LAW from another ?

 

[Sunshinee777]

Hebrews 8

6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Amen.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

How do you support this from scripture ?

How do you discern one type of LAW from another ?

Moral Law
Exodus 20 King James Version Ten Commandments
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Civil Law
Exodus 21,
Reaffirmed by Jesus
Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Dietary
Leviticus 11
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.

Ceremonial law is all throughout the book of Exodus
Exodus 25:40
And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:2
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Jesus our High Priest is in the Heavenly Sanctuary (what is he doing?)


How do you discern one type of LAW from another?
By study of GODS Word
Are you part of spiritual Israel? then GODS word applies to you.

 

[A_Thinker]

Moral Law
Exodus 20 King James Version Ten Commandments
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Civil Law
Exodus 21,
Reaffirmed by Jesus
Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Dietary
Leviticus 11
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.

Ceremonial law is all throughout the book of Exodus
Exodus 25:40
And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:2
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Jesus our High Priest is in the Heavenly Sanctuary (what is he doing?)


How do you discern one type of LAW from another?
By study of GODS Word
Are you part of spiritual Israel? then GODS word applies to you.

There are no such distinction in scripture.

To the extent that we do, ... we do by our own discretion.

That's why the New Covenant confers the forgiveness of all sin (except for the one that Christ spoke of).

Which does not mean that God has no expectations for His children. But we do God's will, not because we follow the Law, but because we love God and our neighbor. We obey God and love our neighbors ... because we're family.

God has made us family, ... His family, which includes every other believer ... and we are learning how to live as part of God's family.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

There are no such distinction in scripture.

To the extent that we do, ... we do by our own discretion.

That's why the New Covenant confers the forgiveness of all sin (except for the one that Christ spoke of).

Which does not mean that God has no expectations for His children. But we do God's will, no because we follow the Law, but because we love God and our neighbor. We obey God and love our neighbors ... because we're family.

God has made us family, ... His family, which includes every other believer ... and we are learning how to live as part of God's family.

So you are a Seventh day Sabbath keeper as the will of GOD says because you obey him?

 

[A_Thinker]

So you are a Seventh day Sabbath keeper as the will of GOD says because you obey him?

I observe the principle of Sabbath day rest ...

 

[Guojing]

I actually don't know if Jesus could have sinned or not. If He couldn't have, ... the temptations He faced seem to be a bit of a wash ...

If you believe Jesus wasn’t impeccable, ie he could have sinned, I can understand better why you would believe that, even if the law is written in our hearts, we can still choose to sin.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I observe the principle of Sabbath day rest ...

Do you obey GOD?

 

[Guojing]

Do you obey GOD?

James 2:10 would be a good verse for you to use. =)