Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

Original Happy Camper

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That the old covenant has been abolished by being superseded by the new, Paul plainly states; of this there is no question. And we affirm further that nothing has been abolished but the old covenant. Whatever has been abolished was included in that covenant, and whatever was not included in that covenant, still remains, unaffected by the change from old to new. If the ten commandments constituted the old covenant, then they are forever gone; and no man need contend for their perpetuity or labor for their revival. But if they did not constitute the old covenant, then they have not been abolished, and no man need breathe a doubt in regard to their perpetuity and immutability. This therefore becomes a test question. It determines as definitely as any one subject can, the whole question of the perpetuity or abolition of the moral law. TTC 5.2

Can we than tell what did constitute the first, or old, covenant. What does the word, covenant, mean? Webster defines it thus: “A mutual agreement of two or more persons or parties, in writing and under seal, to do or to refrain from, some act or thing; a contract; stipulation.” This is the primary, leading definition of the word; and in looking for the old covenant, we look for some transaction to which this definition will apply.

Verses 7, 8: “And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. And all the people answered together and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.” TTC 7.2

Such was the response of the people. They said, “We agree to the terms; we will enter into the arrangement.” We now have the two parties before us, and the mutual, voluntary action on the part of each. This is the first transaction of the kind recorded between God and that people. It answers most strictly to the meaning of the word covenant. Therefore we say that this has the primary claim to be considered the old covenant of which Jeremiah prophesied and Paul discoursed. TTC 7.3

It may be asked, then, how the ten commandments can be called “the covenant.” We answer, That is just where the people are misled. They are never called “the” covenant, referring to the first or old covenant. That the ten commandments are called “a” covenant, we admit; but what kind of a covenant? and in what sense are they so called? Pleased read again Exodus 19:5: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant”, etc. Then God had something which he called his covenant, which antedated the covenant made with Israel. It was already in existence, before any formal agreement whatever was made with that people. And this explains Deuteronomy 4:13. Those who read that verse should be critical enough to observe that Moses does not call the ten commandments the covenant, nor a covenant, but his (God’s) covenant. “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments.” These, then, are what God referred to in Exodus 19:5, in the words, my covenant; and these were already in existence when the covenant was made with Israel. It should be noticed, further, that the covenant of Deuteronomy 4:23, is not a covenant made, but a covenant commanded; and surely any one can see the difference between an arrangement established upon this voluntary and mutual promises of two parties, and that which one party has power to enjoin with authority upon another party. But the covenant here mentioned, God did thus enjoin upon them without regard to any action on their part.

The Two Covenants
 
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miamited

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Hi A thinker,

Hebrews 8

Thanks for that. I know the Scripture, but wanted to make sure that we are all on the same page.

Yes, God created a new law through Jesus. However, the requirements of the old 10 commandment law are embodied in the new law. Jesus said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” In doing that, he said that we would meet all the requirements of the law and the prophets. He even stated that it was a new command, but not really new. It was just a restating in a more general nature, the old Mosaic law about how to honor God and treat others.

In following his (Jesus') command to love the Lord our God with all that we are, we will keep the first laws of the Mosaic covenant. In loving our neighbor as ourselves, we also keep the second set of laws of the Mosaic covenant. I have often pointed out to people that the law handed down to Moses was never about eternal life. If we read the promises and consequences of keeping or not keeping the Mosaic law, it's all about having a good life upon the earth. It's my understanding that the Mosaic law was given by God to separate His people from the other nations of the earth...and it did!

In Leviticus 26 we read:

“ ‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land. “ ‘I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove wild beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country.
You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you. “ ‘I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers, and I will keep my covenant with you. You will still be eating last year’s harvest when you will have to move it out to make room for the new. I will put my dwelling place among you, and I will not abhor you. I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high.

Notice, nothing there about gaining eternal life if the Israelites were to keep God's commands and decrees. Then we read the consequences of not keeping His commands and decrees:

“ ‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you. “ ‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of your land yield their fruit. “ ‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted. “ ‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. And I will bring the sword on you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied. “ ‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. I myself will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it. “ ‘As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their ancestors’ sins they will waste away. “ ‘But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors—their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the LORD.’ ” These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established at Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.

Notice again, no claim of eternal punishment of hell or hades. Just a tough life. But God does promise them that even in their disobedience He will not wipe them completely from the face of the earth. That there will always be a remnant of Israel.

So yes, absolutely! The covenant that God has made to all of mankind through Jesus is a new covenant that is not like the old. It is a covenant that promises blessing in the next life, but doesn't so much promise all the blessings promised to Israel in the old covenant. The promise of the new covenant pretty much guarantees that those who accept it, will be persecuted. Some unto death. But it is, by far, a much greater covenant with a much greater promise.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Hi It is clear that we are living in the New Covenant era as Jesus took the cup and noted that this was the cup of the new covenant being made in His blood. Now Jer notes that this new covenant is not according to the one made when Israel was delivered from Egypt. And to this end the New Covenant repalced the Mosaic law in regards to the removal of sins.

Now there are other covenants not associated with the law of Moses that are still on the books and will be fulfilled. The covenant with Abraham and David and Israel are all promised in Luke 1 to be fulfilled by Jesus as it state Jesus will keep the covenants, oaths, promises and prophecies that Israel will be delivered from their enemies and then worship and serve the LORD without fear and in Holiness all the days of their lives. Yes there is spiritual Israel and a spiritual kingdom but these truths do not annul the other prophecies that will come to pass. Isaiah 61 speaks to this when it goes into detail of what is accomplished in the day of vengeance of our God. Another everlasting covenant is promised to come and it is addressed to Zion and talks of being handed down to their descendants as well. The futurist have both the understanding of being in the spiritual kingdom and anticipating the kingdom age coming .


Jer 31 notes at the end of the chapter that the city (Jeruslaem) will need to be rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the valleys. From that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. This is future and lines up with all the other passages of the 2nd coming when Israel is delivered from enemies and rebuilt and now converted. Amen to the new covenant and I look forward to seeing that other covenant brought in in Isaiah 61
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.

I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
 
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Clare73

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While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to act in accordance with His nature. The way to act in accordance with God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.
Likewise, sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became sinful when it was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be sinful.
That is contra-NT.

The context of Romans 5:12-14 is not about the law revealing sin.
The context is about "the wages of sin is death."
It's about what sin caused the death of those from Adam to Moses when there was no law yet given to sin against, for when there is no law, there is no sin.
And the "sin that was in the world," when there was no law to sin against causing all their deaths, was the sin of Adam, for which all mankind was accounted guilty, condemned (Romans 5:18) and were by nature (birth) objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

Romans 5:12-14 is about the sin of the first Adam being accounted to all those of Adam
(Romans 5:18),
just as the righteousness of the second Adam (Christ) is accounted/credited (Romans 4:3-5) to all those of Christ (Romans 5:18-19).

You misconstrue Romans 5:12-14, causing it to contradict much in the NT.
 
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A_Thinker

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A- Thinker wanted a reply to the above statement in another tread as it was off topic I am posting it here

and will reply later
The Old Covenant was a covenant of Law (i.e. depending upon one's conformance to God's commands).

The New Covenant is a covenant of Grace ... which depends upon our acceptance of God's rescue from our sinful condition.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
 
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Clare73

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A- Thinker wanted a reply to the above statement in another tread as it was off topic I am posting it here and will reply later
The New Covenant has made the Old (Sinaitic) Covenant obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

The law with its regulations (ceremonial law) was abolished on the cross,
thereby uniting Jew with Gentile in Christ through faith (Ephesians 2:15).
 
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Clare73

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Sin was in heaven before the creation of this world
Sin was cast out of heaven.

Relevance to Romans 5:12-14 and the sin which caused the death of all men from Adam to Moses?

Before the entrance of evil there was peace and joy throughout the universe. All was in perfect harmony with the Creator's will. Love for God was supreme, love for one another impartial. Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,—one in nature, in character, and in purpose,—the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. By Christ the Father wrought in the creation of all heavenly beings. "By Him were all things created, that are in heaven, . . . whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16); and to Christ, equally with the Father, all heaven gave allegiance.

The law of love being the foundation of the government of God, the happiness of all created beings depended upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness. God desires from all His creatures the service of love—homage that springs from an intelligent appreciation of His character. He takes no pleasure in a forced allegiance, and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service.

But there was one that chose to pervert this freedom. Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and who stood highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Before his fall, Lucifer was [494] first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled. "Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering. . . .Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:12-15.
The Great Controversy
Chapter 29: The Origin of Evil
For the pleasure (Revelation 4:11) of his glory through the Son (Philippians 2:11; Ephesians 3:10, 1:20-23; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Colossians 1:16-20; 1 Corinthians 1:18-20),

God has decreed a controversy with Satan in which
God's goodness, love, mercy, etc. will be glorified through the Church, Christ's body (Ephesians 3:8-11),
and his
justice, righteousness, holiness, etc. will be glorified by overcoming Satan in such a way that
Satan will no longer contest (Job 1:8-11; Zechariah 3:1-2; Revelation 12:10), but be obliged to agree that God is just and right (Romans 3:4; Philippians 2:10-11).

God is Judge and, therefore, he will not only execute justice, but he will oblige all to agree with it (Philippians 2:10-11), for he will be cleared and vindicated of any charge of when he judges (Romans 3:4).
 
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Guojing

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We will see as He sees. Love as He loves, & do as He would do.

My actual question, if you have been following is, "what does the Law written in our hearts really means (Hebrews 8:10)?"

What does it mean to you? If you believe the Law is written in all our hearts now, how come we can still choose to sin now, but in heaven, we cannot?
 
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Soyeong

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That is contra-NT.

The context of Romans 5:12-14 is not about the law revealing sin.
The context is about "the wages of sin is death."
It's about what sin caused the death of those from Adam to Moses when there was no law yet given to sin against, for when there is no law, there is no sin.
And the "sin that was in the world," when there was no law to sin against causing all their deaths, was the sin of Adam, for which all mankind was accounted guilty, condemned (Romans 5:18) and were by nature (birth) objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

Romans 5:12-14 is about the sin of the first Adam being accounted to all those of Adam
(Romans 5:18),
just as the righteousness of the second Adam (Christ) is accounted/credited (Romans 4:3-5) to all those of Christ (Romans 5:18-19).

You misconstrue Romans 5:12-14, causing it to contradict much in the NT.

You misconstrue what is only against your interpretation of these verses as being against the NT. To use an analogy, if I were to say "sjowsfhiowe", then that would be meaningless gibberish unless there was also instructions that defines what that word means, whereupon I could use that word to communicate intelligibly with people who also understood what it means. In the same way, in order for "sin" to be a meaningful concept, then needs to be instructions that define what it is. However, people can sin by not acting in accordance with those instructions prior to when those instructions were given to them, in which case their sin is charged against them, which is what Romans 5:13 is speaking about. For example, in Romans 7:7-8, Paul said that he would not have known what sin without God's law, so someone who coveted while having no knowledge of God's law would be committing sin, but it would not be counted against them. Sin reigning from the time Adam is speak about other forms of sin that came into the world because of Adam's sin, not about people living sinlessly while still being held guilty because of Adam's sin.

The fact that there was sin from Adam to Moses demonstrates that there was a law to sin against, and there are many examples of this in the Bible. For example, in Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and that he must master it, which implies that Cain knew what sin is and must have been giving instructions in that regard. Likewise, in Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard Gods voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Genesis 39:9, Joseph knew that it was a sin against God to commit adultery.

In order for sin to be in the world before the law was given, then needs to be an action that people were doing that is sin and then the adding to law because of transgressions to give knowledge that it was sin (Galatians 3:19, Romans 3:20).
 
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Hezekiah81

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The new covenant is in the process of being implemented. When complete, it will feature all that you have stated here ...
[Here's what's new about the new covenant.] (Romans 8:2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
 
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Guojing

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While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to act in accordance with His nature. The way to act in accordance with God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. Likewise, sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became sinful when it was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be sinful.

So if we are under the New Covenant, how come we can still choose to sin when the Law is now written in our hearts?
 
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Adventist Heretic

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Hebrews 8

6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days
, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Strong's Greek: 3822. παλαιόω (palaioó) -- 4 Occurrences

Strong's Greek: 3822. παλαιόω (palaioó) -- to make or declare old
 
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Hazelelponi

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So why do you believe we cannot choose to sin after the 2nd coming of Christ?

Because death is the last enemy to be destroyed... 1 Corinthians 15:26

As the wages of sin are death, the destruction of death itself necessitates an end to sin at a future point.

My actual question, if you have been following is, "what does the Law written in our hearts really means (Hebrews 8:10)?"

What does it mean to you? If you believe the Law is written in all our hearts now, how come we can still choose to sin now, but in heaven, we cannot?

What I see as the law being written on our hearts is because we know God's truth, we know right and wrong after we are changed through the new birth.
 
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What I see as the law being written on our hearts is because we know God's truth, we know right and wrong after we are changed through the new birth.

I see, so when the Law is written on our hearts now, we are however still able to go against it and choose to sin.

Alright then, thanks for clarifying what you believe in.
 
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A_Thinker

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My actual question, if you have been following is, "what does the Law written in our hearts really means (Hebrews 8:10)?"

What does it mean to you? If you believe the Law is written in all our hearts now, how come we can still choose to sin now, but in heaven, we cannot?
We are still growing in Love ...

1 John 3:1a See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!
 
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Original Happy Camper

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The Old Covenant was a covenant of Law (i.e. depending upon one's conformance to God's commands).

The New Covenant is a covenant of Grace ... which depends upon our acceptance of God's rescue from our sinful condition.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Where did Moses get the law from?

Exodus 20 King James Version

20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

(ten commandments)

ect.


Matthew 4 King James Version

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Yes, God created a new law through Jesus. However, the requirements of the old 10 commandment law are embodied in the new law. Jesus said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” In doing that, he said that we would meet all the requirements of the law and the prophets. He even stated that it was a new command, but not really new. It was just a restating in a more general nature, the old Mosaic law about how to honor God and treat others.

Great statement you have made here Ted.

So does that mean you keep the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD as delineated in the fourth commandment of the old ten commandments?
 
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Ted
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Great statement you have made here Ted.

So does that mean you keep the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD as delineated in the fourth commandment of the old ten commandments?

Hi OHC,

No, that's definitely one my sins that I will have to trust Jesus' blood for. Although, I'm retired now and I have quite a few Sabbath qualifying days throughout most weeks. As Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. God's Sabbath was a day of rest that we not get our sights confused on working for money over honoring Him. The Sabbath was made for man's benefit. A day of rest for the body and soul.

God bless,
Ted
 
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