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LoveGodsWord

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I have task for the Sabbatarians here. Show us one line of Scripture where the Gentile believers were told to keep the Sabbath.

Here ya go....

Gentile believers are no longer gentiles according the scriptures they are now a part of God's Israel, which means Gods' Word and promises are now included for Gentile believers who are now a part of God's Israel are now for included in God's Israel (the true Church).

Ephesians 2:11-14 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

If you are not a part of God's Israel then you have no part in God's new covenant promise which is to ISRAEL...

Hebrews 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

According to the scriptures, Gods' Israel is no longer all those who were born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now today all those who have been born of the Spirit to believe and follow God's Word...

Romans 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

God's Israel therefore in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's promises through faith.

Your welcome :)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The word 'day' is often dropped when people referred to days of the week. So it is often referred to simply by the adjective "Lords" (κυριακὴν). Koine Greek translators are well aware of this, which is why all translations of the Didache render 14.1 as "the Lords day"... This tradition has carried over into modern Greek, and the today's Greek word for Sunday is κυριακή. You can check this in Google Translate. The same occurs with other days of the week. So for instance the Greek word for Wednesday is τετράδα (fourth), short for 'fourth day'.
τετράς, άδος, ἡ ‘the number four’ (Aristot., Philo), esp. ‘the fourth day’ (Hes. et al.; ins, pap, LXX of the fourth day of the month) the fourth day of the week, Wednesday τετράδα on Wednesday D 8:1 (on the acc. in answer to the question ‘when?’ s. B-D-F §161, 3; Rob. 470f).—DELG s.v. τέσσαρε​
Well the purpose of this thread of course is to examine the teachings of the early Church that the Lords day from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week from the scriptures alone so I do not want the thread to get side tracked into a didache discussion but simply wish make a few helpful comments here.

In the Koine Greek of the biblical texts and as posted earlier the naming of the days in the Hebrew culture (unlike the the Romans and the Greeks) used Gods' Word for the naming of the days. For example; if "day" is not in the Greek text the reference point used by the translators in adding the English word day is to "week". This is because the original Greek if "day" is omitted it is normally written in the Greek as "first of the week" meaning first day of the week. The Greek word for reference here to add in the word "day" in the English is the Greek Word "week" therefore the first of the week, is day 1 or the first day of the week which are all are all equivalent readings.

The Greek word for "week" therefore is the reference point and context to the numbering of the days of the "week" that the translators add in the English word "day" into our English translations which is the equivalent of the original Greek text and the reference point for adding "day" into our translations (e.g. John 20:19 see Greek context to week here). Now note; Revelation 1:10 in the Koine Greek is τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" with ἡμέρᾳ (day) not being a supplied word of the translators but the original Greek text that is not supplied.
Koine Greek translators are well aware of this, which is why all translations of the Didache render 14.1 as "the Lords day"...
With what was posted in the previous section to you with the need to have a reference point for a translator to add in the word "day" and as been shown through the scriptures that normally if the Greek word day is not used there is normally a reference point to "week". There is no reference point in the didache for the translators to add the word day in a translation. This is where you run into problems but let me explain why. In the translation of the didache in the Greek there is no reference points to the Greek words for day or week used in the entire document as shown earlier by @HIM in his link to the original Greek text and the didache in the Greek does not say "the Lords day" in the original Greek.

Here is the proof that the English translation has been mistranslated.

Didache 14:1a in the original Greek reads....
Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ.

Didache 14:1a
in the original Greek to English....
According to 'the Lord's things' of Lord: gather break bread and give thanks, confessing out

Mistranslated to English....

Didache
14:1a as mistranslated to the English with no reference point for translation reads....
"But every Lord's [day] gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving"

The first clause in Greek, "κατά κυριακήν δέ κυρίου", literally means "On the Lord's of the Lord", a unique and unexplained double possessive, and translators supply the elided noun, e.g., "day" (ἡμέρα hemera), "commandment" (from the immediately prior verse 13:7), or "doctrine". This is one of two early extrabiblical Christian uses of "κυριακήν" where it does not clearly refer to Sunday because textual readings have given rise to questions of proper translation. According to the scriptures breaking bread of bread is also not a reference point because this can be done daily or weekly at any time of the week *Acts of the Apostles 2:42, 20:7. (Ambiguous references)

..................

So at best all you have here once again is an undated manuscript with no name or reference point that scholars cannot even agree on in regards to dating that mysteriously appeared out of a Catholic monastery in 1873 which has been mistranslated to include "the Lords day" with no reference to time, day or week with no reference point for the inclusion of the added word "day" to Lords of the Lord. Therefore a mistranslation.
The Didache was written in AD60, well before John wrote Revelation, and together with other early Christian literature, shows us that the term "the Lords day" was in common use at the time to refer to Sunday, the day on which they met together.
I respectfully disagree as this claim is impossible to prove as there was no date or author attached to the original didache manuscript. Some scholars even date it to the 3rd and 4th Century. Keeping in mind here this is a document that only suddenly appeared inside a Catholic monastery in Turkey in 1873 which in the original Greek has no reference to "the Lords day" which is also not scripture that proves that the "Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week but simply a questionable document from a questionable source with questionable dating with a questionable translation a demonstrated above.

.................

Can we get back to the OP now? Can you show me how we get Sunday or the first day of the week from the scripture alone that show that the man-made teachings of the early Church's use of "the Lords day" to Sunday is biblical?

Take Care
 
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Hezekiah81

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Whose commandments? (Jesus')
The Father and the Son are one. (John 12:49) For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. (John 5:44) How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?
 
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Hezekiah81

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No, the Church does not usurp the authority of God. The Church has the authority God gave it. Once again, you people keep forgetting, we worship Jesus on Sunday. And every day, but especially Sunday. Nobody 'took away' anything, except many Christians don't keep the Sabbath rest. The Sabbath was a day of rest, and that rest is HOW the Hebrews were expected to keep it holy. Entirely separate from WORSHIP, which is a very active thing.
There is no commandment for Sunday worship over the sabbath and if you believe in Christ you are Abraham's seed.
 
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Blade

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Cute.. I like how this is being done. Well the wording "outside" of scripture can't be talked about. It shots down what the OP is saying. In Rev "the lords day" THEY at that time knew what John meant. But see.. you can't talk about that truth no only a bible verse. Greek.. book here before my eyes.. does not word it the same as the OP has.. he doesn't know this?

See truth.. whos definition are we going with for the greek here? Were talking say Rev 1:10. Do they we all agree on the definition given? So just what or whos definition would you op like us to agree with?

So could it have been the lords day Sunday or the lords day in the future? Yeah one GREEK says this. Are they wrong? It reminds me of the Mormon friend I had. One day at his house he brings out this stack of books. I simply asked ok who wrote all those? "Mormons".

So at the end .. nothing will have changed. Is GOD not man telling you to worship Him remember Him.. we know this was something He wanted before the 10 commandments. "remember to". Key words there. Well some seem to think it started when the 10 was first given.. was it? :)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Cute.. I like how this is being done. Well the wording "outside" of scripture can't be talked about. It shots down what the OP is saying. In Rev "the lords day" THEY at that time knew what John meant. But see.. you can't talk about that truth no only a bible verse. Greek.. book here before my eyes.. does not word it the same as the OP has.. he doesn't know this?

See truth.. whos definition are we going with for the greek here? Were talking say Rev 1:10. Do they we all agree on the definition given? So just what or whos definition would you op like us to agree with?

So could it have been the lords day Sunday or the lords day in the future? Yeah one GREEK says this. Are they wrong? It reminds me of the Mormon friend I had. One day at his house he brings out this stack of books. I simply asked ok who wrote all those? "Mormons".

So at the end .. nothing will have changed. Is GOD not man telling you to worship Him remember Him.. we know this was something He wanted before the 10 commandments. "remember to". Key words there. Well some seem to think it started when the 10 was first given.. was it? :)
Hello Blade and welcome. In regards to your post and comments here, it is actually not that way at all. As posted in the OP, there is no argument or disagreement in regards to what the early Church taught in their traditions and teachings in regards to "the Lords day" being Sunday. This has never been in dispute here and is agreed to by all parties involved.

The purpose of this OP however is to simply examine these claims to see if they are supported in the scriptures or not or simply a man-made teaching and tradition of the early Church. As you might be aware, as the Church developed, many other man-made teachings and traditions were also taught within the Church which was also not supported in the scriptures in the past which eventually resulted in the Reformation of the 16th century.

So the purpose of this OP is simply to examine the claims of the early Church which taught that Revelation 1:10 "the Lords day" means Sunday or the first day of the week. Do you have any scripture that shows that "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week? If you do not then isn't this claim simply another man-made teaching and tradition of the early Church that is not supported in the scriptures?

Take Care.
 
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Root of Jesse

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But
Is it?

Saturday Sabbath will remain the day of worship for eternity....

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,
” says the Lord.

This is for those saved, Jews, Gentiles and it's not a surprise to God's saints because we already keep the holy day of the Lord as written by our Creator and Savior. Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 This is God's authority, not mans, who changed the corporate day of worship and Jesus warned us about following man-made traditions in lieu of obeying God's commandments Matthew 15:3-9
But the Gentiles weren't subject to the law. In fact, the argument in Acts 15 was that Gentiles required circumcision. The Church used her authority, and guidance from the Holy Spirit to decide otherwise. There was no mention what day they should worship.
At any rate, I trust my Church. You go with whatever. Do head stands if you want. Whats it to you?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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But the Gentiles weren't subject to the law. In fact, the argument in Acts 15 was that Gentiles required circumcision. The Church used her authority, and guidance from the Holy Spirit to decide otherwise. There was no mention what day they should worship. At any rate, I trust my Church. You go with whatever. Do head stands if you want. Whats it to you?

Keep in mind here Jesse, that Acts of the Apostles 15 was never over the question are God's 10 commandments a requirement for Christian living of new gentile believers. It was over the question being posed in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 which is the context of the chapter says [1], And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brothers, and said, except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses you cannot be saved. [2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain of then should go to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question. So Jesse, what question did Paul and Barnabas go to Jerusalem to discuss according to the scriptures? The subject matter and the question being discussed in Jerusalem was not are Gods' 10 commandments a requirement and the standard for for Christian living but is "circumcision" a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers! The interpretation of many in regards to Acts of the Apostles 15 has Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says sometime latter after the decision at Jerusalem to the Corinthians believers in 1 Corinthians 7:19 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. Acts 15 was never over the question are God's 10 commandments still the standard for Christian living. It was over the question is circumcision a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2).

Now do you have any scripture that proves that "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week? If not isn't this early Church tradition and teaching simply a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by the scriptures? These are the questions we are really considering in this OP.

Take Care
 
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Hezekiah81

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Cute.. I like how this is being done. Well the wording "outside" of scripture can't be talked about. It shots down what the OP is saying. In Rev "the lords day" THEY at that time knew what John meant. But see.. you can't talk about that truth no only a bible verse. Greek.. book here before my eyes.. does not word it the same as the OP has.. he doesn't know this?

See truth.. whos definition are we going with for the greek here? Were talking say Rev 1:10. Do they we all agree on the definition given? So just what or whos definition would you op like us to agree with?

So could it have been the lords day Sunday or the lords day in the future? Yeah one GREEK says this. Are they wrong? It reminds me of the Mormon friend I had. One day at his house he brings out this stack of books. I simply asked ok who wrote all those? "Mormons".

So at the end .. nothing will have changed. Is GOD not man telling you to worship Him remember Him.. we know this was something He wanted before the 10 commandments. "remember to". Key words there. Well some seem to think it started when the 10 was first given.. was it? :)
[Your right God did mention he wanted the sabbath kept before the 10 as we see in (Exodus 16:23-30) and he sanctified that same day after creating the heavens and the earth (Genesis 2:3), also you can see the sabbath being mentioned in prophesy (Isaiah 66:23). Jesus also declares the sabbath was made for man and that he is the Lord of it (Mark 2:27-28) and didn't come to abolish it (Matthew 5:17) like mixed up religion would have you think.]
 
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Jipsah

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Saturday Sabbath will remain the day of worship for eternity....
Then why weren't Gentiles instructed to keep it?

we already keep the holy day of the Lord as written by our Creator and Savior.
Your opinion is duly noted. Where is the Scripture where Gentiles are told to keep the Sabbath?

Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 This is God's authority, not mans, who changed the corporate day of worship and Jesus warned us about following man-made traditions in lieu of obeying God's commandments Matthew 15:3-9
Gentiles never had a day of worship, but simply took the day our LOrd was resurrected as their own, the Lord's Day. Nothing was "changed" for them, they knew nothing of the Sabbath.
 
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Hezekiah81

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Spoken by a Jew to Jews. Where were Gentiles told to keep Shabbos?
(1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (John 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. [God's word couldn't be clearer on the truth.]
 
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Jipsah

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Keep in mind here Jesse, that Acts of the Apostles 15 was never over the question are God's 10 commandments a requirement for Christian living of new gentile believers.
So you're telling us one of the many places in Scripture that does not command Gentile believers to keep Shabbos. We're looking for one that does command it.

Now do you have any scripture that proves that "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week?
It's in the same passage whwere the Gentile believers were told to keep the Sabbath. The Gentiles didn't have a Day of Worship, and knew nothing of the Sabbath. They weren't saved by the 10 commandments. They worshipped on the Lord's Day, the day our Lord was resurrected.

If not isn't this early Church tradition and teaching simply a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by the scriptures?
Sorry the attempt to dodge the question isn't working. Where does Scripture command Gentile believers to keep Shabbos?

These are the questions we are really considering in this OP.
Your quesion is moot if Gentiles were never told to keep the Sabbath in the first place.

Where's the Scripture, mate? I don't care about the traditions of your group, is it in the Bible or not?[/quote]
 
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Jipsah

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How about that scripture where your told not to keep God's commandments, oh yeah it's not there.
Which commandments were Gentiles commanded to keep, and where?
 
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Jipsah

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Gentile believers are no longer gentiles according the scriptures they are now a part of God's Israel, which means Gods' Word and promises are now included for Gentile believers who are now a part of God's Israel are now for included in God's Israel (the true Church).
Nice try, but nothing from the Bible. Your opinion is all very well, but it isn't the Word of God. You say Gentiles have to keep the Sabbath, show us in Scripture.
 
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Jipsah

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[Your right God did mention he wanted the sabbath kept before the 10 as we see in (Exodus 16:23-30) and he sanctified that same day after creating the heavens and the earth (Genesis 2:3), also you can see the sabbath being mentioned in prophesy (Isaiah 66:23). Jesus also declares the sabbath was made for man and that he is the Lord of it (Mark 2:27-28) and didn't come to abolish it (Matthew 5:17) like mixed up religion would have you think.]
That's all very well, but the Gentiles knew nothing of all that, and as far as we're told in Scripture, knowing it was not required of them. If you believe it was, show us where.
 
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Hezekiah81

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That's all very well, but the Gentiles knew nothing of all that, and as far as we're told in Scripture, knowing it was not required of them. If you believe it was, show us where.
(Acts 13:42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. [Seems to me they were well aware of the sabbath.] (Hebrews 4:8-10) 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [Does that sound familiar you can't abolish the sabbath and you can't separate the body of Christ like your trying to do, also give me that verse that says we're not to keep God's commandments, oh yeah it's not there.]
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Nice try, but nothing from the Bible. Your opinion is all very well, but it isn't the Word of God. You say Gentiles have to keep the Sabbath, show us in Scripture.
Well that is not true. What do you mean nothing from the bible? There was 10 scriptures posted in post # 361 linked, that are God's Word showing that Gods' Israel in the new covenant are all those who are now born of the Spirit to believe and follow God's Word with gentiles being grafted in *Romans 11:13-27. These scriptures of course are Gods' Word not my words that you disagree with here with your words that are not God's Word. What is it in the scriptures provided in the linked post that disagree with your earlier claims and teachings that Gods Word is not for gentile believers? Of course your free to believe as you wish. That is between you and God. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Matthew 15:3-9.

Take Care :)
 
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