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Root of Jesse

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Where is the scripture that says the Apostles transferred God's holy day? There is none. We show the apostles telling us we ought to obey God over man Acts 5:29, Paul telling us to obey the commandments of God which includes the 4th commandment 1 Cor 7:19 and going to Temple like Jesus on the Sabbath as it was their custom. Luke 4:16, Acts 18:4.
Well, I'm agreeing with you. The apostles kept the Sabbath. But they worshiped Jesus on the First Day.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Well, I'm agreeing with you. The apostles kept the Sabbath. But they worshiped Jesus on the First Day.
Show me the scripture that says that. There is nothing. That would require the Apostles to delete the Sabbath commandment and transfer the holiness of the Sabbath day to the first day. Only God can make a day holy. This is what Daniel was predicting in the Bible Daniel 7:25 and Jesus warned us about Matthew 15:3-9. It's not to late for anyone right now to worship God in truth and spirit, but there will be a time sooner than later, like in the days of Noah where it will be too late. I am off for now. God bless
 
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timothyu

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Well, I'm agreeing with you. The apostles kept the Sabbath. But they worshiped Jesus on the First Day.
I'm not sure why they would worship Jesus. Even His resurrection just further proved that the Gospel of the Kingdom that He taught (governance of God over the governance of man) was being fulfilled. Jesus didn't say it was about Him, but that He had shown the way to salvation, following the will of the Father and not of man..
 
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Root of Jesse

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I'm not sure why they would worship Jesus. Even His resurrection just further proved that the Gospel of the Kingdom that He taught (governance of God over the governance of man) was being fulfilled. Jesus didn't say it was about Him, but that He had shown the way to salvation, following the will of the Father and not of man..
Not sure why they would worship Jesus, after he proved that he is God? Headscratcher, that. Jesus claimed to be God, and proved it. SMH
 
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swordsman1

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In this case you are trying to claim that the section you posted in ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10 (cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν) is the meaning of the Greek word τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ when it is simply the application of "the Lords day and how it was applied in early Christian literature well after the scriptures were written. In this case as already shown to you in post # 519 from post # 498 linked, the above is not the meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lord day" but simply a comparison to early Christian literature's use of "the Lords day" to Sunday. I am not sure why you cannot see this. So we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

No, you are wrong. Again, in this example the translation (in italics) refers to Rev 1:10. It's right there in bold in BDAG.

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10 (cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν).

The BDAG format is:

the koine greek -- its translation in italics -- the NT verse in bold --- additional notes in brackets.

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα - The Koine Greek text

the Lord’s Day, Sunday - Its translations (note the italics)

Rv 1:10 - The verse it applies to, Revelation 1:10

(cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν) - additional note: compare with Justin Martyr Apology I 67.7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν (where the word for day is almost identical).



[1] Nearly all bible translations translate τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ to "the Lords day" - Not Sunday or the first day of the week.

[2] All Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons translate the Greek τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ as meaning "the Lords day" with the Greek meaning of the day pertaining to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day - Not Sunday or the first day of the week. There is nothing in the Greek words used in Revelation 1:10 or the rest of the bible that translates the meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ to Sunday or the first day of the week in scripture which is what we are discussing.

[3] Your ignoring the above Greek meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ as meaning "the Lords day" or that day pertaining to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day as shown above from your own Lexicon BDAG while simply quoting early Church's use and application of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ from early Christian literature from BDAG to Sunday and the first day of the week written in the 2nd Century AD which is not the original Greek meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ but an application made by the early Church well after Revelation 1:10 was written.

Yes, I agree the literal translation of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ is the Lord's Day (that is what each of those words mean). But according to BDAG, "the Lords Day" is synonymous with Sunday. That's why the above entry gives two possible translations for Rev 1:10 - the Lords Day and Sunday.

The reason BDAG does this is because it is a historical fact that from around ad 60 the early church met on the 1st day of the week, which they termed "the Lord's day". The term was in widespread use at the time which is why John uses this term in Revelation (written in ad 95).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No, you are wrong. Again, in this example the translation (in italics) refers to Rev 1:10. It's right there in bold in BDAG.
ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10 (cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν). The BDAG format is: the koine greek -- its translation in italics -- the NT verse in bold --- additional notes in brackets. ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα - The Koine Greek text the Lord’s Day, Sunday - Its translations (note the italics) Rv 1:10 - The verse it applies to, Revelation 1:10
(cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν) - additional note: compare with Justin Martyr Apology I 67.7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν (where the word for day is almost identical).
Sorry but that is not true at all. As posted earlier your applying an early Christian literature application of the Greek meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated in the Greek to English as "the Lords day" to Sunday when there is no scriptural link to τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated the Lords day in scripture. Once again your using early Christian literature outside of scripture to make the application to Sunday when there is no scripture that links ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week. All you have quoted above is exactly I have said in earlier posts. That is you are using a BDAG early Christian literature quote applying ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated "the Lords day" to Sunday when this is not the Greek meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day." For example, In order for you to claim that the man-made teaching and tradition of "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 means Sunday or the first day of the week you need to be able to link and show that τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day" to other scripture that prove "the Lords day" being referred to in Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week. You have provided no scripture to make this claim or connection. This is the point I have been trying to share with you. All you have provided is early Christian literature outside of scripture that simply makes the application to "the Lords day" being Sunday after Revelation 1:10 was written without showing from scripture that "the Lords day" means Sunday or the first day of the week or that the Lord claims ownership of the first day of the week. Scripture does not say anything on either. All you have posted above is a reference from Justin Martyr which is not scripture but early Christian literature written well after Revelation 1:10 which is not scripture which is what I have already told you in earlier posts.
Yes, I agree the literal translation of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ is the Lord's Day (that is what each of those words mean). But according to BDAG, "the Lords Day" is synonymous with Sunday. That's why the above entry gives two possible translations for Rev 1:10 - the Lords Day and Sunday. The reason BDAG does this is because it is a historical fact that from around ad 60 the early church met on the 1st day of the week, which they termed "the Lord's day". The term was in widespread use at the time which is why John uses this term in Revelation (written in ad 95).
So now your agreeing with me in regards to the literal Greek meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ means the Lord's Day or the day belonging to the Lord. This is what you have been ignoring earlier in our discussions which is good you are acknowledging this now. BDAG does not say that the literal Greek interpretation of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ is Sunday. It says that the application of the early Christian literature is using τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ in it's comparative application to Sunday. That is the difference and agrees with what I have been sharing with you from the beginning. There is no Christian literature that says anywhere that the Church met in 60 AD to call the first day of the week or Sunday "the Lords day". Where did you come up with that one? In 60 AD most of the Apostles were still active in preaching Gods' Word and sharing the gospel. There is no mention of them meeting in the scriptures for the purpose of calling Sunday or the first day of the week "the Lords day." (Apostolic History of the Early Church. 2009 Don Fanning; Liberty University). Let's talk more when you can show me from the scriptures that τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated the Lords day in scripture means Sunday or the first day of the week from scripture. This is the point and challenge of the OP.

Take Care.
 
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DamianWarS

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Jesus and God claim ownership over in line with the Greek word meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" or the day the Lord claims ownership over in Revelation 1:10.
This is misleading and is the problem of your argument. It is not sufficient enough to draw a connection to Rev 1:10. All you have is broadly similar language.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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This is misleading and is the problem of your argument. It is not sufficient enough to draw a connection to Rev 1:10. All you have is broadly similar language.
The full scripture argument is posted in post # 588 linked which summarizes a very strong scriptural argument for the Sabbath as being the Lords' day of Revelation 1:10. The argument is not the small sections you are micro-quoting out of the full post taken from it's contexts. If you disagree and believe that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" your welcome to prove it from the scriptures. That is the challenge of this OP which is to examine the man-made teaching and tradition that claims that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" from scripture. As shown from the scriptures and what have been posted in the linked post above "the Lords day" or the day that Jesus claims authority over and God and Jesus claim as their own is the Sabbath day. I am yet to see in this thread any scripture that proves "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week which is a man-made teaching and tradition from outside of scripture that is not support by the scriptures.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
 
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DamianWarS

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The full scripture argument is posted in post # 588 linked which summarizes a very strong scriptural argument for the Sabbath as being the Lords' day of Revelation 1:10. The argument is not the small sections you are micro-quoting out of the full post taken from it's contexts. If you disagree and believe that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" your welcome to prove it from the scriptures. That is the challenge of this OP which is to examine the man-made teaching and tradition that claims that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" from scripture. As shown from the scriptures and what have been posted in the linked post above "the Lords day" or the day that Jesus claims authority over and God and Jesus claim as their own is the Sabbath day. I am yet to see in this thread any scripture that proves "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week which is a man-made teaching and tradition from outside of scripture that is not support by the scriptures.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
your full scriptural support is irrelevant. all you are doing is building a collection of scripture about the Sabbath that no one disagrees with. then you take that collection and superimpose it over Rev 1:10 and claim it the same thing and that's the leap part that can't be supported. your scriptural support for the points they are making for each verse are not the issue (The Sabbath is God's, God made the Sabbath, God has authority over the Sabbath... etc...), the issue is the conflating it with Rev 1:10 and saying it's the same thing. You may post 1000 verses of various language that shows the Sabbath is Gods but none of that tells us Rev 1:10 means the Sabbath. Your entire argument amounts to a broadly similar language. that is not proof that just builds a case for the Sabbath having strong value throughout the bible. Your conclusions for Rev 1:10 are just from assumption from this biblical focus of the Sabbath and that's all it is. The fact is, not a single verse in the entire Bible tells us explicitly what day of the week is the Lord's Day as references in Rev 1:10. Sunday gathering is an early NT value, it has spiritual precedence as it relates to biblical events (like Christ's resurrection) and it has historical precedence as the value of Sunday gathering is well established in history that overlaps with the NT period therefore it is a responsible exegesis of the text.
 
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HIM

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No, you are wrong. Again, in this example the translation (in italics) refers to Rev 1:10. It's right there in bold in BDAG.

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10 (cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν).

The BDAG format is:

the koine greek -- its translation in italics -- the NT verse in bold --- additional notes in brackets.

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα - The Koine Greek text

the Lord’s Day, Sunday - Its translations (note the italics)

Rv 1:10 - The verse it applies to, Revelation 1:10

(cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν) - additional note: compare with Justin Martyr Apology I 67.7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν (where the word for day is almost identical).





Yes, I agree the literal translation of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ is the Lord's Day (that is what each of those words mean). But according to BDAG, "the Lords Day" is synonymous with Sunday. That's why the above entry gives two possible translations for Rev 1:10 - the Lords Day and Sunday.

The reason BDAG does this is because it is a historical fact that from around ad 60 the early church met on the 1st day of the week, which they termed "the Lord's day". The term was in widespread use at the time which is why John uses this term in Revelation (written in ad 95).
The mention of Sunday is not Italicized. Not quite sure why you would post it was. Or change it for that matter. Maybe you made a mistake? I know when we copy our copy from theWord it does not keep the original formatting. We have to add it. I have the book also and checked it. Sunday is not italicized.

κυριακός, ή, όν (s. κύριος) pert. to belonging to the Lord, the Lord’s (oft. in ins [since 68 A.D.: OGI 669, 13; 18] and pap.=‘imperial’ in certain exprs.: imperial treasury, service, etc. See Dssm., NB 44ff [BS 217ff ], LO 304ff [LAE2 362ff ]; Hatch 138f; and πρῶτος 1aα end; Iren. 1, 8, 1 [Harv. I 67, 1; 6f ]) κ. δεῖπνον the Lord’s Supper 1 Cor 11:20. κ. ἡμέρα the Lord’s day (Kephal. I 192, 1; 193, 31; ὁ μὲν τέλειος … ἀεὶ ἄγει κ. ἡμέρας Orig, C. Cels. 8, 22, 6) i.e. certainly Sunday (so in Mod. Gk., and cp. POxy 3407 [IV A.D.]) Rv 1:10 (WStott, NTS 12, ’65, 70–75). For this κυριακὴ κυρίου D 14:1. Without κυρίου (Kephal. I 194, 9; 195, 6; Did., Gen. 190, 2) GPt 9:35; 12:50. τῷ σαββάτῳ ἐπερχομένης τῆς κ. AcPl Ha 3, 9. κατὰ κυριακὴν ζῆν observe the Lord’s day (opp. σαββατίζειν) IMg 9:1 (on the omission of ἡμέρα cp. Jer 52:12 δεκάτῃ τοῦ μηνός and s. ἀγοραῖος 2). σύνταξιν τῶν κυριακῶν ποιούμενος λογίων making an orderly presentation of the dominical words Papias (2:15) (s. also ἐξήγησις end); κ. λογίων (11:1; 12:2); κ. λόγων (3:1); κ. ἐξηγήσεων (8:9).—SMcCasland, The Origin of the Lord’s Day: JBL 49, 1930, 65–82; JBoehmer, D. christl. Sonntag nach Urspr. u. Gesch. ’31; PCotton, From Sabbath to Sunday ’33; WRordorf, Der Sonntag … im ältesten Christentum ’62 (Eng. tr. AGraham ’68); HRiesenfeld, Sabbat et Jour du Seigneur: TWManson memorial vol. ’59, 210–17.—B. 1008. DELG s.v. κύριος. M-M. TW. Spicq. Sv.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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your full scriptural support is irrelevant. all you are doing is building a collection of scripture about the Sabbath that no one disagrees with. then you take that collection and superimpose it over Rev 1:10 and claim it the same thing and that's the leap part that can't be supported. your scriptural support for the points they are making for each verse are not the issue (The Sabbath is God's, God made the Sabbath, God has authority over the Sabbath... etc...), the issue is the conflating it with Rev 1:10 and saying it's the same thing. You may post 1000 verses of various language that shows the Sabbath is Gods but none of that tells us Rev 1:10 means the Sabbath. Your entire argument amounts to a broadly similar language. that is not proof that just builds a case for the Sabbath having strong value throughout the bible. Your conclusions for Rev 1:10 are just from assumption from this biblical focus of the Sabbath and that's all it is. The fact is, not a single verse in the entire Bible tells us explicitly what day of the week is the Lord's Day as references in Rev 1:10. Sunday gathering is an early NT value, it has spiritual precedence as it relates to biblical events (like Christ's resurrection) and it has historical precedence as the value of Sunday gathering is well established in history that overlaps with the NT period therefore it is a responsible exegesis of the text.
Sorry but I respectfully disagree with you and the scriptures are posted for all to see as shown in post # 588 linked which is directly relevant to this OP as it shows what the scriptures say in regards to the Greek meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" or the day that the Lord Jesus claims authority and ownership over in Revelation 1:10 through both the old and new testament scriptures. The linked post summarizes a very strong scriptural argument for the Sabbath as being the Lords' day of Revelation 1:10. If you disagree and believe that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" your welcome to prove it from the scriptures. As posted earlier that is the challenge of this OP which is to examine the man-made teaching and tradition that claims that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" from scripture. As shown from the scriptures in the linked post "the Lords day" or the day that Jesus claims authority over and God and Jesus claim as their own is the Sabbath day which is shown directly from the scriptures in the linked post above. As mentioned in the last post to you I am yet to see in this thread any scripture that proves "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week which is simply a man-made teaching and tradition from outside of scripture that is not support by the scriptures.
 
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swordsman1

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Sorry but that is not true at all. As posted earlier your applying an early Christian literature application of the Greek meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated in the Greek to English as "the Lords day" to Sunday when there is no scriptural link to τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated the Lords day in scripture. Once again your using early Christian literature outside of scripture to make the application to Sunday when there is no scripture that links ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week. All you have quoted above is exactly I have said in earlier posts. That is you are using a BDAG early Christian literature quote applying ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated "the Lords day" to Sunday when this is not the Greek meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day." For example, In order for you to claim that the man-made teaching and tradition of "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 means Sunday or the first day of the week you need to be able to link and show that τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day" to other scripture that prove "the Lords day" being referred to in Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week. You have provided no scripture to make this claim or connection. This is the point I have been trying to share with you. All you have provided is early Christian literature outside of scripture that simply makes the application to "the Lords day" being Sunday after Revelation 1:10 was written without showing from scripture that "the Lords day" means Sunday or the first day of the week or that the Lord claims ownership of the first day of the week. Scripture does not say anything on either. All you have posted above is a reference from Justin Martyr which is not scripture but early Christian literature written well after Revelation 1:10 which is not scripture which is what I have already told you in earlier posts.

It is not me who is saying that Sunday is an alternative translation of "ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα" in Rev 1:10. It is BDAG, the most trusted of all lexicons....

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10 (cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν).

The 2 possible translations of Rev 1:10 are in italics.

What is in parenthesis afterwards is a side note asking the reader to compare ἡμέρα in Rev 1:10 to ἡμέραν in Justin Martyr's First Apology. Remember this is under the BDAG entry for ἡμέρα (day).

If you think BDAG is wrong in their suggested translations for Rev 1:10, you need to write to the authors and explain why you think they have made a mistake. If they agree with you they might remove the word 'Sunday' in the next edition. Until that happens I would rather trust their expertise, rather than yours.


There is no Christian literature that says anywhere that the Church met in 60 AD to call the first day of the week or Sunday "the Lords day".

Sorry but there are numerous early Christian writings that say they met on Sundays, and that they called it the "Lords Day". Here are the earliest (before John wrote Revelation)....

Epistle of Barnabas 15:9 (ad 74) “We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead”

Didache 14:1 (ad 60) "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. "
 
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swordsman1

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The mention of Sunday is not Italicized. Not quite sure why you would post it was. Or change it for that matter. Maybe you made a mistake? I know when we copy our copy from theWord it does not keep the original formatting. We have to add it. I have the book also and checked it. Sunday is not italicized.

κυριακός, ή, όν (s. κύριος) pert. to belonging to the Lord, the Lord’s (oft. in ins [since 68 A.D.: OGI 669, 13; 18] and pap.=‘imperial’ in certain exprs.: imperial treasury, service, etc. See Dssm., NB 44ff [BS 217ff ], LO 304ff [LAE2 362ff ]; Hatch 138f; and πρῶτος 1aα end; Iren. 1, 8, 1 [Harv. I 67, 1; 6f ]) κ. δεῖπνον the Lord’s Supper 1 Cor 11:20. κ. ἡμέρα the Lord’s day (Kephal. I 192, 1; 193, 31; ὁ μὲν τέλειος … ἀεὶ ἄγει κ. ἡμέρας Orig, C. Cels. 8, 22, 6) i.e. certainly Sunday (so in Mod. Gk., and cp. POxy 3407 [IV A.D.]) Rv 1:10 (WStott, NTS 12, ’65, 70–75). For this κυριακὴ κυρίου D 14:1. Without κυρίου (Kephal. I 194, 9; 195, 6; Did., Gen. 190, 2) GPt 9:35; 12:50. τῷ σαββάτῳ ἐπερχομένης τῆς κ. AcPl Ha 3, 9. κατὰ κυριακὴν ζῆν observe the Lord’s day (opp. σαββατίζειν) IMg 9:1 (on the omission of ἡμέρα cp. Jer 52:12 δεκάτῃ τοῦ μηνός and s. ἀγοραῖος 2). σύνταξιν τῶν κυριακῶν ποιούμενος λογίων making an orderly presentation of the dominical words Papias (2:15) (s. also ἐξήγησις end); κ. λογίων (11:1; 12:2); κ. λόγων (3:1); κ. ἐξηγήσεων (8:9).—SMcCasland, The Origin of the Lord’s Day: JBL 49, 1930, 65–82; JBoehmer, D. christl. Sonntag nach Urspr. u. Gesch. ’31; PCotton, From Sabbath to Sunday ’33; WRordorf, Der Sonntag … im ältesten Christentum ’62 (Eng. tr. AGraham ’68); HRiesenfeld, Sabbat et Jour du Seigneur: TWManson memorial vol. ’59, 210–17.—B. 1008. DELG s.v. κύριος. M-M. TW. Spicq. Sv.


It is under the entry for ἡμέρα (day).

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10 (cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν).

But even under the entry for κυριακός (Lord's) which you quote, although it only gives the literal translation "the Lord's day", BDAG tells us plainly which day of the week they are certain that is - 'i.e. certainly Sunday'.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It is not me who is saying that Sunday is an alternative translation of "ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα" in Rev 1:10. It is BDAG, the most trusted of all lexicons....

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10 (cp. Just. A I, 67, 7 τὴν … τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν).

The 2 possible translations of Rev 1:10 are in italics.

What is in parenthesis afterwards is a side note asking the reader to compare ἡμέρα in Rev 1:10 to ἡμέραν in Justin Martyr's First Apology. Remember this is under the BDAG entry for ἡμέρα (day).

If you think BDAG is wrong in their suggested translations for Rev 1:10, you need to write to the authors and explain why you think they have made a mistake. If they agree with you they might remove the word 'Sunday' in the next edition. Until that happens I would rather trust their expertise, rather than yours.

Sorry but there are numerous early Christian writings that say they met on Sundays, and that they called it the "Lords Day". Here are the earliest (before John wrote Revelation)....

Epistle of Barnabas 15:9 (ad 74) “We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead”

Didache 14:1 (ad 60) "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. "

Sorry I am not interested in your references to early Church writings that were written well after the Koine Greek in Revelation 1:10 that are not the Koine Greek meaning τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated in the Greek to English as "the Lords day" in Revelation 1:10. As posted earlier your making your argument to early Christian literature application of the Greek meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated in the Greek to English as "the Lords day" to Sunday when there is no scriptural link to τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated the Lords day being applied to Sunday or the first day of the week in scripture.

Once again your using early Christian literature outside of scripture to make the application to Sunday when there is no scripture that links ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week. All you have quoted above is once again is exactly what I have said in all earlier posts. That is you are using a BDAG early Christian literature references that are not scripture and applying ἡλίου ἡμέραν translated "the Lords day" to Sunday when this is not the Greek meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day."

This is not scriptural evidence that τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day" is Sunday. It is only a reference from early Christian literature as applying the Lord's day to Sunday that is written well after Revelation 1:10 was written when the Jews never used Sunday as a reference for the first day of the week and there is no where in scripture that links "the Lords day" to the first day of the week. In order for you to claim that the man-made teaching and tradition of "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 means Sunday or the first day of the week, you need to be able to link and show that τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day" to other scripture that proves "the Lords day" being referred to in Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week.

You have provided no scripture to make this claim or connection. This is the point I have been trying to share with you. All you have provided is early Christian literature outside of scripture that simply makes the application to "the Lords day" being Sunday after Revelation 1:10 was written without showing from scripture that "the Lords day" means Sunday or the first day of the week or that the Lord claims ownership of the first day of the week. Scripture does not say anything on either. All you have posted above is a reference to more early church literature written well after Revelation 1:10 which is not scripture which is what I have already told you in earlier posts.discussion here is. Let's be honest now. You have no scripture to support the man-made teaching and tradition that "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday now do you? All you have is sources outside of the bible that are not Gods' Word in order to support a man-made teaching and tradition that cannot be supported by Gods' Word.

Something to pray about.
 
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swordsman1

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No it doesn't it provides the Greek word meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day" as pertaining to the Lord or the day that the Lord claims ownership of and early Christian Church literature application of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day" to Sunday that is not the Greek word meaning. All you have provided above is another early Church reference from Justin Martyr that I posted to you about earlier. You ignore the Greek Word meaning for early Christian literature that claims the Lords day is Sunday which is not the Greek meaning of τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day" neither is the application of "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week able to be demonstrated through scripture that can be proven in scripture. This is the point of the OP here. Your simply repeating yourself again. Do you have any scripture that proves τοῦ ἡλίου ἡμέραν which means "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week? - Nope. Then what do you have to support this man-made teaching and tradition that "the Lords day" is Sunday? - Sources outside of Gods' Word that are not God's Word! Not sure why you still cannot see this to be honest.

Wrong.

The 2 translations in BDAG are only referring to Rev 1:10

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10

The additional note in parenthesis is only inviting the reader to compare the word ἡμέραν (day) in Justin Martyrs text. Justin doesn't even use the word 'Lord'. Remember this is the entry for the word ἡμέρα (day).
 
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Freth

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This argument is easily resolved, if scripture is used as it was intended.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.​
  • What day did God sanctify? Genesis 2:1-3
  • What day was commanded to be observed and hallowed? Exodus 20:8-11
  • What day did God designate as His sign? Exodus 31:13
  • What day did Jesus claim to be Lord of? Mark 2:27-28
  • What day did Jesus observe in life? Luke 4:16
  • What day did Jesus observe in death? Matthew 27:46-50, Matthew 28:1-7
  • What day will be observed when the tribulation hits? Matthew 24:20
  • What day are we to observe throughout eternity? Isaiah 66:23
Sabbath, which is Saturday, clearly the Lord's day, as set by the Lord Himself.



Scripture warns against the tradition of men.

Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
The Lord's day according to the tradition of men.
  • What day does man claim to be the Lord's day?
  • What day does one church organization openly claim authority to dictate as the Lord's day?
  • What day has no actual scriptural support as a day of worship, of sanctification, or to be hallowed?
  • What day flies in the face of the commandment of God?
 
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swordsman1

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This argument is easily resolved, if scripture is used as it was intended.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.​
  • What day did God sanctify? Genesis 2:1-3
  • What day was commanded to be observed and hallowed? Exodus 20:8-11
  • What day did God designate as His sign? Exodus 31:13
  • What day did Jesus claim to be Lord of? Mark 2:27-28
  • What day did Jesus observe in life? Luke 4:16
  • What day did Jesus observe in death? Matthew 27:46-50, Matthew 28:1-7
  • What day will be observed when the tribulation hits? Matthew 24:20
  • What day are we to observe throughout eternity? Isaiah 66:23
Sabbath, which is Saturday, clearly the Lord's day, as set by the Lord Himself.



Scripture warns against the tradition of men.

Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
The Lord's day according to the tradition of men.
  • What day does man claim to be the Lord's day?
  • What day does one church organization openly claim authority to dictate as the Lord's day?
  • What day has no actual scriptural support as a day of worship, of sanctification, or to be hallowed?
  • What day flies in the face of the commandment of God?

We are attempting to determine what John meant by the term ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα "The Lord's Day" in Rev 1:10. None of the verses you cite mention this term. It appears nowhere else in scripture.

At the time John wrote Revelation the term was in widespread use in Christian communities to refer to Sunday, the day on which they worshipped. The historical evidence proves this. Using the established principles of hermeneutics, which is to also consider the historical evidence, the conclusion we must draw is that John is most likely referring to Sunday. The "Lord's day" is a term he knew his audience would instantly understand as Sunday (John was writing to the early churches).

If John was referring to the sabbath, he would have used the word "sabbath". That is the word he always uses for the sabbath. (See John 5:9, John 5:10, John 5:16, John 5:18, John 7:22, John 7:23, John 9:14, John 9:16, John 19:31). The fact he specfically uses a different term strongly indicates he NOT referring to the sabbath.

There is not a single commentary of Rev 1:10 that claims John is referring to the sabbath (I quoted 23 earlier in this thread). The single exception is a guy from the sda university who would undoubtedly lose his job if he said anything different.

Neither are there any lexicons that state 'the Lord's day' in Rev 1:10 is the sabbath. Quite the opposite, the most respected lexicon, BDAG, states it is referring to Sunday.
 
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DamianWarS

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Sorry but I respectfully disagree with you and the scriptures are posted for all to see as shown in post # 588 linked...

sure... I'll dissect post #588

[1]. Gods' Word has been provided from Revelation 1:10 showing that the Greek words τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated into English as "the Lords day" that John is attributing to Jesus means the day that is belonging to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day.

scripture listed: Revelation 1:10

this of course is a summary of the verse in question and it is you're making an agreeable point. John of course uses the term "Lord's Day" as a colloquialism not as an explicit statement or claim of the day (but still implicit). One way we know it's a colloquialism is the word used in the text translated as "Lord's" (kuriakos) is a Greek word that emerges out of the early church. There are 2 examples of is used in the NT, this passage and a reference to the Lord's supper in 1 Cor 11:20 and it does not appear in the septuagint.

HELPS Word-studies defines it as follows:
2960 kyriakós (an adjective, derived from 2962 /kýrios, "lord") – properly, pertaining (belonging) to the Lord (kyrios). 2960 (kyriakós) is used of the Lord's Supper (i.e. "communion," the Lord's table) and "the Lord's day" (Sunday) as the appointed day for rest and worship. See 1 Cor 11:20; Rev 1:10.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines it this way (definition 2 is used):
2. relating to the Lord, ἡ κυριακῇ ἡμέρα, the day devoted to the Lord, sacred to the memory of Christ's resurrection, Revelation 1:10 (cf. 'κυριακῇ κυρίου, Teaching 14, 1 [ET] (where see Harnack); cf. B. D., under the word ; Lightfoot Ignatius ad Magn. [ET], p. 129; Müller on the Epistle of Barnabas 15, 9 [ET]); γραφαί κυριακαι the writings concerning the Lord, i. e. the Gospels, Clement of Alexandria, others (Cf. Sophocles' Lexicon, under the word.)

both agree the day in question is Sunday or pertaining to the "memory of Christ's resurrection"

[2]. God's Word has been provided from *Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 showing that the day Jesus claims authority over as Lord is the Sabbath day and that Jesus has this authority as Lord of the Sabbath because he is the creator God of heaven and earth and the Sabbath day that he rested on after His finished work of creation where he blessed and made holy the Sabbath day as a memorial of creation **John 1:1-4; ; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 2:1-3

Scripture listed (part a):
Matthew 12:8
Mark 2:28
Luke 6:5

The Matthew, Mark and Luke references are the same event articulated over the gospels. The main point is derived from this line that each agrees with "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath". This establishes not ownership but authority of the Sabbath which is the point Christ is making. As it pertains to Christ being the author of the Sabbath this is a bit misleading and tends to mash Christ in a conflated version of the trinity. John 1:3 tells us "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" and Col 1:16 “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him". This presents a different perspective than what you are setting as the role of Christ in creation. Scripture/translations tend to favour the language "through him". This certainly doesn't take away Christ's intrinsic authority/ownership but it's a different focus then what you're taking. I tend to favour the biblical presentation of Christ.

scripture listed (part b):
John 1:1-4; 14;
Colossians 1:16
Genesis 2:1-3

You haven't made it clear why you are using the John and Colossians verses as it is not inline with your point. As previous mentioned both John and Colossians shows us the language "through him all things were made" and John 1:14 tells us the word became flesh. These are fairly agreeable verses and well established doctrinally but you're not really being specific how it builds you point. Are you simply trying to say Christ is God? That's all well and good but no one is disagreeing with that so the verses seems misplaced are at least needs to be better unpacked. Certainly Genesis 2:1-3 is inline with your point but how does John 1:1-4 and Colossians 1:16 contribute to this? Christ was there, and all things were through him, including rest and blessings. This is just too undeveloped of a point and I don't see how this builds your cause.


[3] God's Word has been provided showing that the day that Jesus as the God of creation and God claims both authority and ownership over is the Sabbath day where God demonstrates ownership calling the Sabbath "My Holy day"; My Sabbaths; The Sabbath of the Lord thy God; The Sabbath of rest holy unto the Lord; the Holy day of the Lord which are all scripture references to the Sabbath day in * Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 31:12-18; Leviticus 19:30; Ezekiel 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:15; Leviticus 23:3; Exodus 31:15; Exodus 20:10 demonstrating God's claim to ownership over the Sabbath day in light of Johns claim of "the Lords day or the Lords ownership of the day "The Lords day". The scriptures provided above demonstrate both the authority of Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath and Jesus and God's claim to ownership of the Sabbath day! While in return there is not a single scripture that links τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week.

scripture listed:
Isaiah 58:13 - "My holy day"
Exodus 31:12-18 - "My Sabbaths"
Leviticus 19:30 - "My Sabbaths"
Ezekiel 20:12 - "My Sabbaths"
Deuteronomy 5:15 - "God commanded you to [a]celebrate the Sabbath day"
Leviticus 23:3 (the 4th commandment)
Exodus 31:15 - (the 4th commandment)
Exodus 20:10 - the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God

I've included the most relevant quote to reference them quicker. All these verses show the importance of the sabbath and establisher through various language that the Sabbath is God's such as "My holy Day" or "My Sabbaths" etc... They do indeed build a case for the Sabbath belonging to God and one that is very agreeable. So I'll infer that your point here is since the Sabbath is well established as belonging to God biblical references of a day uniquely identified with God broadly or specifically should be assumed it is the Sabbath if not otherwise mentioned.

And this is the point you've established through the assumption that because the OT views the Sabbath "this" way, Rev 1:10 must be the Sabbath. That's a reasonable enough point but it is a bias. It's a bias because it focuses is only a half answer of "why the Lord's day is the Sabbath" but you failed to answer the other half of "Why it's not Sunday".

Scripturally Sunday is an established day of gathering demonstrated in Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2. We also see this unique word only being used in the NT kuriakos despite what appears to be similar language elsewhere this is a new word not used before (including the Septuagint). In the NT it's used twice in Revelation 1:10 (the text in question) and I Corinthians 11:20 which is referring to the Lord's Supper. The references are few for Sunday gathering as well as this unique word but they are enough and a line can connect it all with 2 verses. I Corinthians 11:20 uses the term kuriakos (1 of the only 2 references in the bible) which is a unique word for what seems to involve worship towards Christ but literally that which belongs to Christ. This word is used to reference the Lord's Supper. So when do we have the Lord's supper? Scripture shows us in Acts 20:7 that there was a tradition established of "breaking bread" upon the first day of the week. So we see the Lord's Supper being valued on the first day of the week. Would this not make sense to call the day also "The Lord's Day"? This is in line with the historical record of the early Christians gathering on Sunday, the oldest being the Didache which has instruction saying "every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving". This is extra-biblical, I know, but what is important is the same language is used of "breaking bread" for the Lord's Supper which biblically speaking agrees with Sunday.

The Lord's supper is a memorial to what? His role in creation? His birth? His rest? Specifically not these, it is a celebration of his memorial of his death and resurrection. 1 Corinthians 11:20 and surrounding context clearly shows a tradition of gathering and participating in the Lord's supper when they gather. A meal celebrating the death and resurrection of Christ is called the "Lord's Supper" and seems appropriate to have it on a day that also celebrates his death and resurrection and called the "Lord's Day" being the day of the week Christ resurrected. The Sabbath does not capture this value and both these NT examples of this unique greek word "kuriakos" are exclusively about Christ. The first is undeniably about a repeated memorial event of his death and resurrection that is supported biblically as happening every time believers met. NT establishes believers met on the first day of the week and this is supported by the historical record so it would be reasonable that his expression used in Rev 1:10 "Lord's Day" also is of a memorial to Christ's death and resurrection as it is the day you partake of the Lord's Supper.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Wrong.

The 2 translations in BDAG are only referring to Rev 1:10

ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα the Lord’s Day, Sunday Rv 1:10

The additional note in parenthesis is only inviting the reader to compare the word ἡμέραν (day) in Justin Martyrs text. Justin doesn't even use the word 'Lord'. Remember this is the entry for the word ἡμέρα (day).
I am sorry I respectfully disagree. This has already been answered. All your providing here once again is a reference from Justin Martyr which is not scripture but early Christian literature. Let's talk further when you have scripture that proves the Christian tradition of calling Sunday "the Lords day". Until then all you have to prove your teachings are early Christian writings outside of the bible which is what I have been telling you from the beginning which does not answer this OP so we will agree to disagree.
 
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