Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Saint Steven]

There plenty of verses saying people can get lost refering to condemnation etc.
The bible stops making sense if people says everyone will be in heaven.

Would it work better for you if I said everyone will be in hell?

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't think I mistook what he was saying.at all. I meant "Okay" in the sense of "Whatever!".

Maybe I let him off too easy then. - lol

 

[NBB]

Would it work better for you if I said everyone will be in hell?

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Thats not biblical either, Jesus died for the world not in vain, but people need to repent and believe (just good old gospel known stuff i think).

 

[Saint Steven]

Eternal Conscious Torment is an evil full stop.

I agree.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thats not biblical either, Jesus died for the world not in vain, but people need to repent and believe (just good old gospel known stuff i think).

Yes, sounds familiar.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

 

[Hmm]

Maybe I let him off too easy then. - lol

I'm not saying that but, to depersonalise, it can you trust the Christian discernment of anyone who believes in Eternal Conscious Torment and believes that is compatible with the Jesus of the Gospel?

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not saying that but, to depersonalise, it can you trust the Christian discernment of anyone who believes in Eternal Conscious Torment and believes that is compatible with the Jesus of the Gospel?

I try to remember that it wasn't that long ago that I believed in ECT. And I think my spiritual discernment in many areas was pretty good, even better than average. So, I don't want to make UR an "us vs them" thing. There are, after all, three biblical views of the final judgment. Every Christian is free to choose. IMHO

On the other hand, I know that some of my UR compatriots, for one reason or another, simply can't see eye-to-eye with those who don't share our views. I can easily understand how that could happen.

 

[Hmm]

I try to remember that it wasn't that long ago that I believed in ECT. And I think my spiritual discernment in many areas was pretty good, even better than average. So, I don't want to make UR an "us vs them" thing. There are, after all, three biblical views of the final judgment. Every Christian is free to choose. IMHO

On the other hand, I know that some of my UR compatriots, for one reason or another, simply can't see eye-to-eye with those who don't share our views. I can easily understand how that could happen.

Okay, I'll have to trust you on that then because I can't relate to it: I've never bought into the ECT idea and have always realised that it's immoral, thank goodness.

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay, I'll have to trust you on that then because I can't relate to it: I've never bought into the ECT idea and have always realised that it's immoral, thank goodness.

You are truly unique in that regard. Most of us were taught about heaven and hell at the youngest age. I understood and accepted the idea as young as five years old. My Dad used to share a funny story of something I said at the time that showed I had the basic idea.

 

[Hmm]

You are truly unique in that regard. Most of us were taught about heaven and hell at the youngest age. I understood and accepted the idea as young as five years old. My Dad used to share a funny story of something I said at the time that showed I had the basic idea.

You are a good example of tolerance, thanks! I'd like to know that story if you care to tell it...

 

[Saint Steven]

You are a good example of tolerance, thanks!

I'll take that as a compliment. - lol

The great thing about the forum from my perspective is the broad spectrum of believers here. By not taking issue with others whose doctrines I disagree with, I have been able to learn more about them and to actually appreciate them. I'm actually rougher on folks with similar beliefs. - lol

 

[Hmm]

I'll take that as a compliment. - lol

The great thing about the forum from my perspective is the broad spectrum of believers here. By not taking issue with others whose doctrines I disagree with, I have been able to learn more about them and to actually appreciate them. I'm actually rougher on folks with similar beliefs. - lol

I don't have issues with anyone. I don't have any agenda to press but I don't like being lectured to unless I have requested it.

 

[zoidar]

Conversely, those who actually believe in a forever burning hell should be warning every stranger they meet. Right?

Well, do you think that would help them come to Christ? If I believed that I think I would have warned people of hell pretty regularly.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, do you think that would help them come to Christ?

I suppose that depends on how convincing your warning is.

 

[ozso]

Thats not biblical either, Jesus died for the world not in vain, but people need to repent and believe (just good old gospel known stuff i think).

Do they need to repent and believe in order that God may heal them?

For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them. Matthew 13:15

One doesn't need to believe in universal redemption, but I think it's necessary to understand it, to properly discuss or debate it. And all one really has to understand is from the UR perspective, it's all about healing rather than damnation. The wrath of God is like radiation treatment for cancer. That cancer being sin. Jesus is the great physician.

 

[Hmm]

Do they need to repent and believe in order that God may heal them?

Yes, it's just the same as with every mainstream denomination, the only difference is that God eventually gets through to everyone. The writer Thomas Talbott summed this up with these Christian Universalist propositions:

1. All human sinners are equal objects of God’s redemptive love in the sense that God wills or aims to win over each one of them over time and thereby to prepare each one of them for the bliss of union with the divine nature.
2. God’s redemptive love will triumph in the end and successfully win over each and every object of that love, thereby preparing each one of them for the bliss of union with the divine nature

 

[zoidar]

I suppose that depends on how convincing your warning is.

I don't believe that. It's a work of the Holy Spirit if someone comes to Christ.

10 years before I came to Christ I talked to a girl who said that I would go to hell if I don't become a Christian. What happened was that I didn't feel well talking to her so I ended our contact. What finally brought me to Christ was that things happened in my life. I got convinced that the Bible was true and that I was about to miss out of heaven. First then I wanted to be a Christian.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't believe that. It's a work of the Holy Spirit if someone comes to Christ.

Of course. I was mostly joking with you.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I suppose that depends on how convincing your warning is.

 

[Saint Steven]

10 years before I came to Christ I talked to a girl who said that I would go to hell if I don't become a Christian. What happened was that I didn't feel well talking to her so I ended our contact. What finally brought me to Christ was that things happened in my life. I got convinced that the Bible was true and that I was about to miss out of heaven. First then I wanted to be a Christian.

What did you understand as the alternative for heaven then? If you "missed out" on heaven, what would you have expected in the afterlife?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I try to remember that it wasn't that long ago that I believed in ECT... I don't want to make UR an "us vs them" thing. There are, after all, three biblical views of the final judgment...

... I don't have any agenda to press but I don't like being lectured to unless I have requested it...

The thing that surprises me the most is how sure people are that their beliefs are true.

I do not have this certainty.
In fact the opposite, I assume my beliefs about reality are incorrect.

Perhaps I'll die, be given a super intelligent brain, super perception and super attitude and be shown a lot and taught super philosophy by either Jesus or another representative of God? Maybe I will see clearer then, but for now - I'm not sure its possible. That being said, would I want to be "given" this, or would I want to grow into it?

I wonder if the point of faith is this...
If you saw God (and you do in part), you wouldn't understand what you saw.
Maybe all this life, religion and experience is about growing.
Evolving from a being that cannot comprehend God into a being that can?

I don't know