Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Cormack]

That’s a very difficult question, Steve. We’re all in different situations so I’m reluctant to proscribe some kind of cure all or in depth course of action. Privately, so long as I loosely knew the person, I’d write much more than publicly on here.

Still, if it’s a Christian who’s changed their mind doctrinally and now believes that Gods gospel has blessings in it for the whole world, I’d say that they should get to know God again. Unlearn the lies.

Don’t try and get to know God again inside your head though, He’s not inside of our head case doctrines waiting to love us because we ticked the correct box, He’s abundantly alive in people and in us if we start living outside of those things.

Be honest with yourself, don’t be like that person on Britains got talent or American idol who thinks they can sing but in reality they suck eggs. Face facts and then choose who’s going to inspire you, choose your inspiration wisely and that’s where God is, He’s there when two or more are gathered.

To that most Christians would reply “I pick Jesus!” Yeah but that’s no help, “Jesus is my role model” is often akin to saying “my thoughts about Jesus are my role model.” That’s us duping ourselves back into our head space slavery again, back into our doctrines, there’s nothing in there, we’re not that smart or that interesting.

Love Jesus, read about Him, I do, but don’t use Christ in heaven as a divine bandaid when all of your hang ups are here on earth.

Christians need real human friends who can be their heroes, we won’t live out real healing stuff through John MacArthur, Piper, Michael Brown or even Jesus because we need solid day to day interaction to grow and mature.

In my experience hardcore Christians don’t have many real friends (often they have none,) they’re too demanding and overbearing, too focused on getting their opinion out there, nervous even, nervous yet selfishly dominant.

It’s a tough combination to love so people simply stopped loving us, but we console ourselves, “they just don’t get it,” “watch a movie? I’m looking at eternal things, what could be more important,” “Can’t wait for this wicked world to end” etc.

Compete with yourself. Stop underwhelming everyone you come into contact with. Unlearn the lies, get over yourself, find some real heroes and compete to be the best version of yourself in the real world (not in fantasy doctrine land where we spend all day arguing.)

People always disliked the term “head shrinker,” but that’s what many Christians online need. There’s too much going on up there and not enough living in the victorious Spirit.

 

[Hmm]

That's interesting.
So, if the person you shared that with says, "Sounds good, I'm in." What's the next step?

My take on that is that fortunately I've never taken ECT seriously but I never knew enough about Christian Universalism to kind of "label" myself that or to understand how the belief in it gradually became the dominant one among Christians.

Thread like this one and your own current one picqued my interest and I'm currently reading a book on the subject by Thomas Talbott called The Inescapable Love of God. It's funny how differently and how much more sense things make when looked at through the lens of UR. That the belief that God will ultimately achieve His stated aim of bringing everything into reconciliation with Him and finally be "all in all" is regarded as heretical by the mainstream churches only shows just how far they are trapped in a quagmire of historical mistranslations and misperceptions of the Bible and political control.

It's good to know that the Bible supports UR far more than it does the infernalist position and the weaker Arian view that some people may be finally lost because they may ultimately chose to reject God in their free will - there is some scripture that can be interpreted to support both of these latter views but there isn't much.

So as to what's next, for me anyway. ECT (Endless Circular Tête-à-Têtes) on here of course but other than that as Cormack said just living a life but now free of the relatively little - I know some people suffer terribly - anxiety I had about the mixed message of a loving God suddenly turning into a petty and vindictive monster at the moment of death if one's faith didn't meet the almost impossibly high standard required.

If I'm wrong though I still promise not to be calling out yours and Cormack's names from the fiery pit of hell. I don't see how I could anyway. It's must be very hard to recall names and verbalise them when you're constantly engulfed in flames but perhaps (I'm always open-minded on these things) you develop the knack over time.

 

[Hmm]

Just to add to my last post, the major problem with ECT is not the unnecessary (because it doesn't actually exist) anxiety about oneself but the huge sadness it inculcates when thinking of lost loved ones who (we are told) unfortunately didn't quite make the mark when they died and so are, most regrettably, currently residing in hell as an unfortunate casualty of spiritual war.

Here's something I read recently that expresses the sentiment far more eloquently than I can:

”I believe that if a single person is not saved then no one is saved.

What I mean by this is that no one is an island, we are by nature and by nurture, relational creatures. We exist in relationships with others, many of whom we love and many more of whom we have empathy for.

If someone who I love for whom I consider their existence to be a relational part of my own, is lost forever and I have no hope of ever seeing them again, that will be an eternal wound in my soul. As someone who has lost someone close to me, I can tell you that it is a wound that never heals. One learns to live without them, but the memory of them is never without a measure of loss and grief. I will never forget them, and I would never want to. I will also never not be grieved that they are not with me.

If salvation is the true healing of a person's soul, allowing them to experience the life of the spirit in its fullness, without sorrow, pain, or sin, then it must include a way to redeem all those I ever loved as well as myself. The healing of my soul is not an individual act but a communal act, salvation can never be a selfish form of love but only selfless.

A person who is saved, and healed from sin, will love others like Christ loves us. And Christ went to the cross and the grave to save the ones he loved. If we love in the same way then we would rather die ourselves than allow one of our loved ones to suffer.

Even the worst human who ever lived had someone who loved them. And if not, then God loves them and calls His people to love them. For we are not only called to love our family and friends but strangers and our enemies as well.

These are fundamental truths of human nature. The only argument against them is that somehow God will alter us significantly that we will no longer care about the loss or suffering of our loved ones. That however would be such a fundamental mutilation of our beings that we would no longer be us any more, but a brutalized mockery of ourselves, no longer capable of truly reflecting the most fundamental trait of God's image, love.

Therefore if any human being is missing from salvation then the whole of creation remains broken, grieving, and suffering. Salvation is only complete when all are saved. And no individual can be said to have been saved unless they are completely themselves."

 

[Saint Steven]

... ”I believe that if a single person is not saved then no one is saved. ...

On the flip side of that coin, I would say, if anyone goes to hell, everyone will end up there. If God really does send people to hell, and we still have a free will, it's just a matter of time before everyone ends up there.

And how could we be happy in heaven knowing people, and even loved ones, are being tortured mercilessly in the basement?

 

[Saint Steven]

... Unlearn the lies. ...

Yup, we really need to hit the books. (as the saying goes)

 

[Saint Steven]

That’s a very difficult question, Steve. ...

Yes, I suppose it is.
I have been pondering what effect UR has on evangelism and the gospel message itself.

Obviously the gospel of UR doesn't come with the threat of hell. (as in ECT or even annihilation) But, we are saved from a long process of restoration. Although...

Sometimes I wonder if those whom Christianity calls "the lost" will actually need less restoration work than those who claim faith.

This forum, and others, are a living testament to the mess we have made of ourselves. Would it require more work to undo this mess than to restore a person that has not become entangled in the doctrinal quagmire that we choose to swim in?

A big benefit of UR is that I am not nearly as wound-up about "perfect" doctrine and winning biblical battles. In the end none of that will matter. My God is not a book anyway.

I'm much more focused on a personal relationship with God. And in understanding who that God is and how he feels about me. He's not angry with me, he is welcoming.

 

[Albion]

A big benefit of UR is that I am not nearly as wound-up about "perfect" doctrine and winning biblical battles. In the end none of that will matter. My God is not a book anyway.

The easiest and quickest way to avoid being wound-up about doctrine concerning the eternal fate of everybody is to 'let God be God' instead of working so hard to find a way to tell him what he ought to do with people who enter the afterlife without having repented of their sins.

 

[Saint Steven]

The easiest and quickest way to avoid being wound-up about doctrine concerning the eternal fate of everybody is to 'let God be God' instead of working so hard to find a way to tell him what he ought to do with people who enter the afterlife without having repented of their sins.

Conversely, those who actually believe in a forever burning hell should be warning every stranger they meet. Right?

 

[Albion]

Conversely, those who actually believe in a forever burning hell should be warning every stranger they meet. Right?

There's no converse to the statement I made. It applies across the board.

Let God decide since, after all, he is the one in charge. For any of us to turn ourselves inside out trying to settle on some theory that explains what God ought to do, then changing and improving the theory, is both self-defeating and unnecessarily stressful.

And it's presumptuous, considering that God has not chosen to tell us in his holy word all the details concerning the issue we're talking about.

 

[Ceallaigh]

SpiritUnchained/videos/6900000000-are-going-to-hell-but-dont-worry-youre-safe-off-the-kirb-ministries/615185969100812/

There you are mate. I removed the hyperlink since that shows up as a copyright/removed video box, still it should be findable now.

Just add https ://m. face book.com/ onto the front of that.

I'm finding lots of kirb videos with that, but not the one in question.

 

[Saint Steven]

There's no converse to the statement I made. It applies across the board.

Okay, thanks. I thought perhaps you were being sarcastic.

 

[Ceallaigh]

There's no converse to the statement I made. It applies across the board.

Let God decide since, after all, he is the one in charge. For any of us to turn ourselves inside out trying to settle on some theory that explains what God ought to do, then changing and improving the theory, is both self-defeating and unnecessarily stressful.

And it's presumptuous, considering that God has not chosen to tell us in his holy word all the details concerning the issue we're talking about.

It doesn't seem much different than all the eschatology pursuits going on. Or predestination vs free will. Or Loss of salvation vs once saved always saved etc. However unlike those, it seems we've somehow been trained not to question hell.

 

[NBB]

I think the bible is clear that there are people who will not enter heaven.

 

[Hmm]

The easiest and quickest way to avoid being wound-up about doctrine concerning the eternal fate of everybody is to 'let God be God' instead of working so hard to find a way to tell him what he ought to do with people who enter the afterlife without having repented of their sins.

Wow, that's a complete misrepresentation of Christian Universalism. Repentence and reconciliation is key, but universally so which is the point I suspect you don't want.

 

[Albion]

Wow, that's a complete misrepresentation of Christian Universalism. Repentence and reconciliation is key, but universally so which is the point I suspect you don't want.

I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

 

[Hmm]

I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

Okay

 

[Saint Steven]

I think the bible is clear that there are people who will not enter heaven.

There already were before Christ's resurrection. He went and fetched them. (after making proclamation)

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay

I think I mistook what he was writing as well.

 

[NBB]

There already were before Christ's resurrection. He went and fetched them. (after making proclamation)

There plenty of verses saying people can get lost refering to condemnation etc.
The bible stops making sense if people says everyone will be in heaven.

 

[Hmm]

I think I mistook what he was writing as well.

I don't think I mistook what he was saying.at all. I meant "Okay" in the sense of "Whatever!". Eternal Conscious Torment is an evil full stop.