Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

Lazarus Short

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I agree. I didn't mean to include myself when I said "most of us are dualists”!

It's a form of indoctrination. Most Christians probably grew up being presented with a picture of heaven held up against a picture of hell and can't now see one without the other. Similarly with partialism, meaning the belief that the atonement was for only a part of humanity. We've heard the idea expressed on this thread "What's the point of being a Christian if were all going to heaven anyway?" As if living this life as close to God as possible wasn't a good enough reason in itself!

What I meant to say, but didn't, is this: Reality is a hierarchy from God to the Universe to the Earth to Man, Animals, Plants, etc. It is the consequences of sin and the Fall of Man that has made room for dualistic thinking.

heaven versus hell

man versus nature

herbivores versus carnivores

plants versus animals

Sometime in the ages to come, "versus" will become an obsolete word.
 
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Cormack

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I know for sure that everything unhealthy we eat is given a moral or spiritualised dimension, “decadent cheesecake,” “indulgent hot chocolate,” “food sins” are everywhere so it’s no surprise that we also say absurd things like “I had the holiday from hell!”

I’m not sure if it’s a help or hindrance to the Christian faith, on the one hand it familiarises the nation with Christian terminology so that to hear the actual thing might not sound as strange. Like a preamble.

On the other hand the casual use of those terms removes the weight or importance with which believers try and discuss these things.

Whatever the case the points above are more to do with Christian youth, and there’s no ambiguity about what branch of the Christian faith all this hell vs. Heaven language will encourage them to follow. A dualistic kind of faith.

Traditionalism likes to pass itself off as hard nosed and against the prevailing secular culture, but they’re more wedded to each other than anyone is prepared to admit.
 
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Cormack

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It is the consequences of sin and the Fall of Man that has made room for dualistic thinking.

heaven versus hell

man versus nature

herbivores versus carnivores

plants versus animals

Sometime in the ages to come, "versus" will become an obsolete word.

That form of thinking even opens the door to God having a rival in the devil, an opposite number (equal in some minds and lesser in others.)

People act as if the devil is present everywhere.
 
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Hmm

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"I had the holiday from hell!”

I know what you mean. I've just been on a once-in-a-lifetime holiday. I'll tell you what, never again.

(courtesy of the Edinburgh Fringe)
 
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Hmm

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One of the problems of thinking that Christianity is about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is that it reduces the gospel to the human scale. By the resurrection of Jesus, God inaugurated a new phase in His project to renew and reconcile "all things and people in heaven and earth" IOW all creation.

This includes us, of course.
Just as one trespass resulted in condemnation fro all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18​

But in focussing on the endless argument about whether "all" mean "all" or only an in-crowd, and which of all the endless definitions there are around of that is the correct one, we're in danger of not hearing the bigger message that Jesus is:

the atoning sacrifice for all our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2​
 
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Saint Steven

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One of the problems of thinking that Christianity is about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is that it reduces the gospel to the human scale. By the resurrection of Jesus, God inaugurated a new phase in His project to renew and reconcile "all things and people in heaven and earth" IOW all creation.

This includes us, of course.
Just as one trespass resulted in condemnation fro all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18​

But in focussing on the endless argument about whether "all" mean "all" or only an in-crowd, and which of all the endless definitions there are around of that is the correct one, we're in danger of not hearing the bigger message that Jesus is:

the atoning sacrifice for all our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2​
Yes, the Bible is easily understood as a book about the redemption of humankind. (good idea for a topic - lol)

Those who object to that idea want to know what we will do with their half dozen Infernalist verses, while they ignore the rest of the Bible.
 
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zoidar

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Yes, the Bible is easily understood as a book about the redemption of humankind. (good idea for a topic - lol)

Those who object to that idea want to know what we will do with their half dozen Infernalist verses, while they ignore the rest of the Bible.

Not only the infernalist verses, but also all the verses that says we have to remain in Christ and endure to the end.
 
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Saint Steven

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Not only the infernalist verses, but also all the verses that says we have to remain in Christ and endure to the end.
I thought the scripture that referred to "endure to the end" was a reference to the end-times scenario. Nothing to do with the salvation of our souls. But you said there were many verses, so maybe you have others to share?

Personally, I don't think salvation has much if anything to do with us.
 
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zoidar

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I thought the scripture that referred to "endure to the end" was a reference to the end-times scenario. Nothing to do with the salvation of our souls. But you said there were many verses, so maybe you have others to share?

Personally, I don't think salvation has much if anything to do with us.

You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
— Matthew 10:22

by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
— 1 Corinthians 15:2

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
— Galatians 6:8-9

If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
— 2 Timothy 2:12

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
— 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
— Galatians 5:19-21

For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
— Ephesians 5:5
 
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Ceallaigh

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1. The Unquenchable Fire

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

It is very easy for a person to read this statement by John the Baptist and take the modern literal meaning and say, “Ah ha! There it is! Unquenchable fire means the fires of hell burn forever!”

The Annihilationist may say in response, “Well yes, the fires burn forever, but not the contents! The verse says that the chaff will ‘burn up’, imply that they will eventually come to nothing.” So far from being eternal conscious torment in that fire, the person will burn up into non-existence.

The Universalist can say, “The phrase ‘unquenchable fire’ has been used in Scripture before to describe God’s judgement against Nations. When Jeremiah spoke about the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, unquenchable fire or fire that cannot be quenched was used to describe the national judgment.

Jeremiah 17:27 “But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.”

Personally, I believe the Universalist has the better argument, his view actually gives a best match for the verse. When we compare Scripture with Scripture, we see other places where unquenchable fire is used to describe Jerusalem’s judgment in this life.

Jeremiah 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

The position of national judgment also fits the Annihilationist’s point about the chaff, being burned up. But we will explore than in the next topic.

2. Worm that dies not

Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus uses this phrase, of fire that is not quenched and where their worm dies not, three times in the book of Mark, while talking to the Jews. It is a repeat of Jesus’ sermon on the Mount teaching from Matthew chapter 5.

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

The Infernalist may say, “You see, there it is, hell is forever and you’re alive through the whole process, because the worms don’t die, far less for the people!”

The Annihilationist may say, “Maybe, but the verse doesn’t actually say that the person isn’t burned up or consumed entirely by the worms. It can just as easily be argued that the worms, like the fire, are there to consume the person and bring them to non-existence.”

The Universalist can say, “Jesus is quoting a passage from the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, where he foretold the destruction of Jersualem by the Babylonians. The verse has nothing to do with the afterlife, as the people are said to go out and behold the dead bodies of the wicked breakers of the Law.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jesus is quoting this verse saying what happened with Babylon is going to happen again with Rome.”

If the Universalist is right, and these passages are talking about National Judgment, they would also satisfy the Annihilationist’ position, about being “burn up” and the people eventually coming to nothing. The difference is that the Universalist sees that people’s BODIES come to nothing, and that these verses are not actually talking about the afterlife.

3. Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The phrase “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is used seven times in the New Testament. All of them are in the Book of Matthew, save one reference in the Book of Luke. It is commonly taught that weeping and gnashing of teeth is synonymous with the sufferings of Hell’s fire.

The infernalist may say, “You see, those in Hell will be weeping and gnashing their teeth over the missed opportunity to hear the Gospel, believe and be saved!”

The Annihilationist may say, “Yes, but it does not say that the suffering will go on forever. Their weeping and gnashing of teeth can be seen as temporary until they are eventually consumed in the flames.”

The Universalist can say, “Jesus is quoting from the book of Lamentations about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, as a warning of what was about to happen to Jerusalem by the Roman forces in 70 AD.

Lamentations 2:15-16 All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.

This is more evidence to suggest that the weeping and gnashing of teeth is something that happens on the earth, and not in the afterlife.

Another use of the weeping and gnashing of teeth, that suggest that the phrase may be used on the Earth, is actually the reference in the Book of Luke.

Luke 13:28-29 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Verse 29 describes those who come from the north south, east and west and shall sit down in the Kingdom of God. The fact that there are no such directions in the afterlife can suggest, while not conclusively so, that these verses are talking about something that happens on the Earth.

4. Hell used to describe National Judgment.

Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

The last use of Hell in the Scriptures that I want to examine, is something that generally Infernalist and Annihilationist tend to overlook entirely. It’s the fact that the word Hell itself, is often depicted to describe national judgment in both the Old and New Testaments.

The reason it’s not discussed by either group is because it’s evident that the use of the word in it’s context, is talking about the destruction of a city, and not people. Seeing how the word is used in the other places of Scripture is the best way to determine it’s meaning in our texts. In the case of Matthew 11:23, it’s clear that Capernaum being brought down to hell does not mean the entire city descending into some infernal torture chamber; instead it means the city will be judged and destroyed.

Similar uses of the Old Testament word, Sheol, translated as hell, can be seen having the same use. Isaiah 14:4-15. While there is great debate about these passages being in reference to Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12), the context of the verses themselves suggest more inline with the King of Babylon and the nation of Babylon being destroyed.

We learn from verse 4, Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

This passage about Babylon’s judgment ends with the same words Jesus quotes concerning what will happen to Capernaum.

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Both the Annihilationist and the Universalist draw their conclusion from the study of Scriptures, not the abandonment of it. Similarly, it is not deception of the devil, but rather the context, history and word studies of Scriptures that can lead people to a different view on the subject of Hell. I would argue that an Universalist, in order to arrive at that position, must have even greater knowledge and understanding of these things, in order to explain all the assumed hell passages in a different context.

4 Misunderstood Phrases, we assume are about hell -
 
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Saint Steven

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You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
— Matthew 10:22

by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
— 1 Corinthians 15:2

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
— Galatians 6:8-9

If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
— 2 Timothy 2:12

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
— 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
— Galatians 5:19-21

For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
— Ephesians 5:5
Matthew chapter ten. That's the one I was referring to.

Saint Steven said:
I thought the scripture that referred to "endure to the end" was a reference to the end-times scenario. Nothing to do with the salvation of our souls. But you said there were many verses, so maybe you have others to share?

Personally, I don't think salvation has much if anything to do with us.
 
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NBB

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I mean i need to be sincere, it would mean all your lost relatives friends etc would be in heaven, and that a lot of people would not suffer greatly, i'm not going to critic God or anything like that, but it would be a 'happier' ending right? Here i am probably showing how little i know God motives etc.
 
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Cormack

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That’s an interesting contribution, @NBB. The part about how much we know of Gods motives, His reasons for doing this, that and the third.

I think if God could create the happiest ending for all of His creatures He would, that old Jewish saying is true that to murder a single man were as though you had murdered the entire world, since so far as that one soul can see and hear and feel, so far as his scope of experience carries, that is the (his) whole world.

Hell for one man (in some sense) is hell for the whole, and I’m not sure God would ever create man if He knew the end of the thing would be forever pain or forever loneliness.

He has a purpose for everyone, “even the wicked for the day of trouble,” but if that verse is read how the traditionalist would prefer it to be read, then, Gods forever motive in creating certain men is that they suffer forever.

Paul wrote that the Christians pain is a slight momentary affliction ultimately outweighed and made to appear as though nothing in light of the joys of eternity, but if we flipped that, the greatness of love, joys in the sun and indulgence of good drink and food would be totally smashed by an eternity of pain and loneliness for the lost sinners in hellfire forever.

Surely going into forever it would be though their every waking moment from the start was pain.

For the traditionalist it would seem that Gods plan and purpose for many isn’t the happiest story, but rather the most unhappy one. I could never reconcile that line of thinking, anyhow, this video from “off the kirb ministries” really helps illustrate the magnitude of the point. To watch it just search off the kirb ministries and “6,900,000,000 are going to HELL.”

It’s nice to finally have a free weekend to share with y’all. :sweatsmile::praying:
 
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Saint Steven

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this video from “off the kirb ministries” really helps illustrate the magnitude of the point. To watch it just search off the kirb ministries and “6,900,000,000 are going to HELL.”
Trouble finding that.
Kirb ministries comes up, but no video with that title.
The video title "6,900,000,000 are going to HELL" comes up (on YouTube), but not by kirb ministries.

I tried playing the "6,900,000,000 are going to HELL". It is a copyright rant about the actual video. - lol

The rant video plays the video in question in the background. Probably not what you are referring to.
 
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Cormack

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SpiritUnchained/videos/6900000000-are-going-to-hell-but-dont-worry-youre-safe-off-the-kirb-ministries/615185969100812/

There you are mate. I removed the hyperlink since that shows up as a copyright/removed video box, still it should be findable now. :thumbsup:

Just add https ://m. face book.com/ onto the front of that.
 
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Saint Steven

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SpiritUnchained/videos/6900000000-are-going-to-hell-but-dont-worry-youre-safe-off-the-kirb-ministries/615185969100812/

There you are mate. I removed the hyperlink since that shows up as a copyright/removed video box, still it should be findable now. :thumbsup:

Just add https ://m. face book.com/ onto the front of that.
That's interesting. It certainly begs a lot of questions about Evangelicalism.

But it seems that UR proponents always need to refer back to Evangelicalism to explain the gospel.

What is the gospel according to Ultimate Redemption? (UR)
(idea for a whole new topic?)
 
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Cormack

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It certainly begs a lot of questions about Evangelicalism.

Watching I actually thought two things. Firstly I thought how silly is it to say people will call “my name” or your name from their torment in hell, how self-centred or self loathing are we expected to be to bite down on a lure like that? It’s alllllllll on me now! I’ve got to evangelise and rescue these people from themselves.

My second thought was, how’s this we must speak or people will die attitude any different from when the left rave “silence is violence”? In their mind, conservatives or apolitical people must say exactly what the left want them to or else they’re complicit in murder (or some equally silly idea.)

I have friends who studied in the humanities, the “creative” avenues of education, and in those communities, to not post a black square or to abstain from the political drama was treated as if it were some great crime.

They’re supposedly an accessory to murder or racism, no different than how we are the lazy beer guzzling Netflix watching cads who let the mass of humanity go to hell. When does the pearl clutching end.

In traditionalism there’s this same hack attitude about Christians who wish to live quiet peaceful lives, and this is coming from a man who loves evangelistic efforts and who loves talking about Jesus with unbelievers.

Some churches are no better than woke hubs, and I’m not simply writing about the social gospel people.

What is the gospel according to Ultimate Redemption?

I take the gospel to be Gods promise to Abraham, the promise that in his seed (namely Jesus) all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

What’s the nature of that blessing? Well, we debate that, we debate the nature of the atonement, was it governmental, ransom theories, Christ victorious tricking the devil into biting on the hook of His godliness and being plundered. Thinking he had caught a minnow like us he pulls a shark into his boat. I like that last one.

So, in short, I think the Gospel according to universal reconciliation is the promised blessing through Jesus to every nation.
 
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I take the gospel to be Gods promise to Abraham, the promise that in his seed (namely Jesus) all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

What’s the nature of that blessing? Well, we debate that, we debate the nature of the atonement, was it governmental, ransom theories, Christ victorious tricking the devil into biting on the hook of His godliness and being plundered. Thinking he had caught a minnow like us he pulls a shark into his boat. I like that last one.

So, in short, I think the Gospel according to universal reconciliation is the promised blessing through Jesus to every nation.
That's interesting.
So, if the person you shared that with says, "Sounds good, I'm in." What's the next step?
 
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