Baptism and communion

[GreekOrthodox]

As Albion explained, the general format of the service is fairly standard, even for low-liturgy churches such as Baptist.

Historically, part of the reason why Eastern Orthodox worship is so elaborate is that the today's service is blended from two separate sources. One piece comes from monastic services and the services that the Byzantine Emperors attended. Hence the complicated services with the fancy vestments. Even though an Orthodox Empire no longer exists, we still have prayers for the Emperor: "... granting the Emperor victory over the barbarians ..." is one literal translation of the prayer "Soson Kyrie", or "Save O Lord"

The oldest extant liturgies from the 4th century could last up to 5 hours. So these existed before Christianity was legalized by the Emperor Constantine.

 

[Dick Barton]

As Albion explained, the general format of the service is fairly standard, even for low-liturgy churches such as Baptist.

Historically, part of the reason why Eastern Orthodox worship is so elaborate is that the today's service is blended from two separate sources. One piece comes from monastic services and the services that the Byzantine Emperors attended. Hence the complicated services with the fancy vestments. Even though an Orthodox Empire no longer exists, we still have prayers for the Emperor: "... granting the Emperor victory over the barbarians ..." is one literal translation of the prayer "Soson Kyrie", or "Save O Lord"

The oldest extant liturgies from the 4th century could last up to 5 hours. So these existed before Christianity was legalized by the Emperor Constantine.

I have been in charismatic meetings that have lasted for six hours Whoo Hoo!!

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I have been in charismatic meetings that have lasted for six hours Whoo Hoo!!

Ah... but can you do it standing? This is a Russian church in SF, Joy of Those Who Sorrow. Notice there are no seats?

 

[mikeforjesus]

I do not know if you need communion to be sanctified to do will of God but as I do not know people should have communion incase but you can not have communion unless you spend time with God to prepare yourself you can break bread together as it is said where 2 or 3 are gathered He is in the midst but it is preferable among church where many can fellowship as more are in need of fellowship Jesus wanted us to do it to remember Him until He comes

I can not speak for God it could not be necessary or it only allows a person sin to be forgiven if he follows God to have life now for all his sins to be forgiven but people should have communion incase

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe God wants me to judge fairly not to support divisions so I will not teach you need baptism or communion as I trust God to accept everyone who seeks to follow Him and it is wrong to judge them but I believe baptism is required to be saved on death and maybe communion too but if anyone is concerned he can be baptized and have communion

 

[mikeforjesus]

I think rather we can’t afford to be wrong and we must leave judgement to God so people should be baptized communion also could be necessary so we should do it though we don’t know it is necessary it could not be or just necessary to be saved on death but we don’t know so it should be done incase

 

[Albion]

That's a good point, Mike. Our Lord directed his followers to continue those practices, so why would we refuse them?

And he wouldn't have done so--shown us baptism by his own example and instituting the Lord's Supper in the presence of his Apostles and telling them to continue the observance in the future--if these were merely optional.

Neither of them is absolutely essential for salvation, of course, but that's only saying that a believer will be forgiven for not observing them when confronted with very unusual circumstances. I have yet to meet someone who said that he wasn't going to be baptized or receive Holy Communion...because he was unable to do so.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thanks I agree though I don’t know for sure what God thinks it seems person should do it but one may not have been convinced God would require them to if others convinced them it is not and they delayed though they should have or they were not fully convinced of the doctrine such as communion in a manner that it is absolutely required as it may not seem it should be absolutely required

 

[Albion]

Thanks I agree though I don’t know for sure what God thinks

Well, all the Scriptural evidence is that He intends for us to observe/receive these sacraments.

Whether or not we can be saved without doing so is less clear and it's mainly a conclusion that the church has reached that salvation -- which is by faith, not by rolling up a record of performing good acts -- is not negated if some person cannot (for some unusual reason or other) receive the sacraments but nevertheless is a true believer.

Thanks I agree though I don’t know for sure what God thinks it seems person should do it but he may not have been convinced God would require them to if others convinced them it is not required especially communion

What you are referring to, I think, is the case of someone who wants to do what any Christian ought to do but has been misled by some church or other Christians into thinking that the sacraments are, in fact, optional. That wouldn't be a case of them literally being unable to receive them.

We do not think that God will damn such a person for this reason, but when you say (or someone else does) that they don't know which approach is correct, the Biblical evidence should be enough to settle the matter. And if they aren't aware of it, we need to point them to it. Christ could hardly have been more explicit in commending those sacraments to his followers.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I think I was right and God wants me to judge rightly to trust He would accept all who believe even if they did not teach it necessary and He would accept all who did follow and believe who may have been taught baptism is just for profession and some do believe that and they did delay to do it to do it as they thought it not helpful to do to be important as they don’t need to show to others they have believed as their household may be Christian already but it is good for one to do when there is
unbelievers to show to them you are a proud Christian they may believe bible teaches people to be baptized as a matter of obedience to show that one is commited to being a Christian which Jesus wanted believers to baptize those who believe and are ready to follow Him to make disciples to know from others they are now commited to Christian faith

Though I believe baptism is necessary to be saved on death and I believe communion might be too so they should be done if anyone wants to believe it is necessary to do to be saved they can believe so and do so but I think God wants me to trust

 

[mikeforjesus]

I have faith in Jesus so I don’t think I should teach it as required though if others doubt and think they need to be baptised and have communion they can do so

 

[mikeforjesus]

Well, all the Scriptural evidence is that He intends for us to observe/receive these sacraments.

Whether or not we can be saved without doing so is less clear and it's mainly a conclusion that the church has reached that salvation -- which is by faith, not by rolling up a record of performing good acts -- is not negated if some person cannot (for some unusual reason or other) receive the sacraments but nevertheless is a true believer.


What you are referring to, I think, is the case of someone who wants to do what any Christian ought to do but has been misled by some church or other Christians into thinking that the sacraments are, in fact, optional. That wouldn't be a case of them literally being unable to receive them.

We do not think that God will damn such a person for this reason, but when you say (or someone else does) that they don't know which approach is correct, the Biblical evidence should be enough to settle the matter. And if they aren't aware of it, we need to point them to it. Christ could hardly have been more explicit in commending those sacraments to his followers.

I think you are right and I can not ignore the words of scripture to please myself if I don’t know it is right I have to obey it to be sure for myself and I should teach it as I can not know for sure whether God will accept and did not absolutely require it only God knows what is right if they don’t believe what I am saying they can join a church but I believe it is the truth to follow as we can’t know but I should leave it to God who knows if they are or are not required

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe rather God wants us to trust in Him if we feel we should to not lean on our own understanding if He required it He would be able to guide us He does not want obeying Him just from fear and not to follow conscience

I believe being born of water and Spirit refers to being born of the word of God which is itself written by the Spirit and by the Spirit one can believe

but baptism is still required to be saved upon death as it is a command and given for forgiveness of sins to allow sins to be washed away in the beginning and continues to if you pray and have communion but you can still be saved doing will of God without it

 

[Albion]

I have faith in Jesus so I don’t think I should teach it as required though if others doubt and think they need to be baptised and have communion they can do so

If a person truly has faith in Jesus, doesn't it follow that he'd be willing to do what Jesus told his followers to do?

 

[mikeforjesus]

People may have been willing if they had been taught truth from beginning but because of thinking maybe people deceived them they may be offended they may follow the faith with less joy but they should still do it if they are willing if they think it is necessary

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I believe rather God wants us to trust in Him to not lean on our own understanding ..... I believe being born of water and Spirit refers to being born of the word of God which is itself written by the Spirit and by the Spirit one can believe

So which is it? Not to "lean on our own understand" or "I believe being born of water and spirit"?

 

[mikeforjesus]

When God says to lean not on your own understanding He means do not act hastily because you don’t have faith you can trust in Him to guide you whatever is in your heart you should accept

Also I don’t want to argue much with you as Paul said avoid contentions about the law for they are unprofitable you can reply but I will not respond immediately and I don’t know your intentions if you want to weaken people’s faith or not

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Since you are posting in the Sacramental / Ordinance section, I'm not trying to attack you or your faith, but explaining that those of the sacramental churches which include Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian and probably some I'm forgetting, that over the 2000 year history of the Christian era, Christians have seen that Baptism and Communion are part of how God acts in a physical manner as we are physical creatures. Now sacramentalists may disagree on various points of the sacraments, but in general we all agree that they are of physical and spiritual benefit.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I did not say they have no spiritual benefit I believe they do but even in the 2000 year history there could not have been agreements there were always people who believed differently it only mattered anyway what the apostles taught people the faith was transmitted by word and people only had to respond to what they knew it taught if they had access to bible in churches at that time they knew what it taught and God could have convinced some the bible says we only need a personal relationship with Him and God was to teach them when they believed when they had the Holy Spirit

 

[mikeforjesus]

I did believe that but now I believe as I do not know I should not teach that as I can not know it is true to mislead others and should leave that to God but I should teach it as required as far as we know and leave it to God who knows.

I believe it is only required to desire to be baptized and to have communion because you could not have chance to do it but if you have opportunity you should do it because you don’t know if by neglecting to do it if you will have chance to repent if one knows he will die within a few moments before he called on God supposing it was required that one could die unexpectedly because he was not baptized or did not have communion but if one ever desired it before he died not knowing he will die within moments if he does not have opportunity he would be accepted.

Also communion must not be done at home when there is church gathering as God wants it done among many and communion is not to be taken lightly it is only to be taken if you are in a relationship with God if you have sought to repent of your sins confessing your sins to God that He may take them away in communion and help you do will of God supposing it is required to have communion to do it.

It is actually not required to do it if the rest of the body does not have chance but if others are receiving it as they have opportunity in house churches you should receive it too as often as you are prepared for only God knows how often you need it and should never be taken if you are not prepared and it is not to be taken in churches often either if you are not repenting.