The 7's are INSIDE each other - they CANNOT be an end-to-end future timetable

[Douggg]

What makes it irrelevant?

It is not in the text of Daniel 9, Daniel 8, and Ezekiel 39.

 

[Timtofly]

point out the way the 7's are INSIDE each other like Matryoshka dolls rather than in sequence.

That's John's primary visual aid that shows Revelation is thematic, not linear.

Linear: progressing from one stage to another in a single series of steps; sequential.

It is impossible for the physical to experience life in any other way. We do not live our lives in a theoretical way. Physicists proved that is impossible. Once observed, life only happens in a linear fashion. Even taking dolls out one by one, you have to leave the rest behind and experience only one at a time. Once experienced they still form a linear progression, no longer theory. Theoretically, you could just experience the smallest doll first, out of order, but you cannot undo that first experience and claim to experience it a second time later, it would be a first and singular event each time.


Yes, Revelation makes sense and is still linear, even if the Seals contain the Trumpets. The 6th Trumpet contains the 7 Thunders, and then the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet contains many events including the 7 vials.

One cannot jump to the 7 vials, experience them and then return to the Seals. Theoretical yes, one could take them out, experience them, put them back, and then experience them again as they would appear as normal as needed. It is not that God cannot change around the order as given. The fact that even though they are events inside of events, each one is not the same event. It is not a different view at a different angle.

One can only experience what will happen, and look back at a linear experience, because there is no experiencing multiple events found in Revelation at the exact same time. What we read is still in the theoretical, doll within doll format. But what we experience is no longer theoretical, but linear, as observation changes theory into reality. And the outer most doll is not a singularity where creation just dissolves, and there are literally no dolls inside this theoretical "big bang" event. There is a change in reality, but that event does not define and create all the other events inside of it's parameters. Some want 2 Peter 3 to be the overall defining factor of the Second Coming.

 

[jgr]

It is not in the text of Daniel 9, Daniel 8, and Ezekiel 39.

So who's wrong? The choice:

1. Douggg
2. Every other inhabitant past and present of planet earth

 

[Douggg]

So who's wrong? The choice:

1. Douggg
2. Every other inhabitant past and present of planet earth

You are going off on a tangent, that is irrelevant. You need to check the rules of the forum.

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

"When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster."

 

[jgr]

You are going off on a tangent, that is irrelevant. You need to check the rules of the forum.

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

"When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster."

So what is wrong? The choice:

1. What Douggg believes
2. What every other inhabitant past and present of planet earth believed or believes

 

[Douggg]

So what is wrong? The choice:

1. What Douggg believes
2. What every other inhabitant past and present of planet earth believed or believes

You need to check the rules of the forum.

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

"When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster."

 

[Gottservant]

I like the concept of 7s being inside each other, a lot.

I would add, that they are simultaneously inside each other.

If you understand this, you are truly blessed,, of scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

v24-v27 is after v21.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Work your way back from v21 to v1 - did Daniel encounter Gabriel anywhere in those verses?

The answer is no. The only encounter Daniel had with Gabriel previously is in Daniel 8.

Again, in verse 23 Gabriel wasn't referring back to that previous vision. He was referring to the vision/insight/prophecy that he proceeded to give in Daniel 9:24-27.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I am saying the millennial temple has not been built yet, and that is where the earthly throne of Jesus will be, in Jerusalem, on Mt. Zion.

David's throne of course was not in the temple, but it was in Jerusalem.

You are avoiding my question. Does the throne that you are calling David's throne currently exist? If so, where is it? If not, then how could a throne that you are calling David's throne, that you believe Jesus will sit on, be built in the future?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It is awful for them who have built an erroneous interpretation of Daniel 9.

What it boils down to for them who hold an erroneous interpetation of Daniel 9 is...

1. not recognizing that the vision to be fulfilled in v21-24 is that of the time of the end vision about the little horn person.

2. not acknowledging that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, that the 7 years after the Gog/Magog event is the 70th week of Daniel 9.

It is awful that you don't recognize that only Jesus Christ and His ministry, death and resurrection could fulfill the six things listed in Daniel 9:24.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Since it says until Messiah the Prince in v25, it was to be the King of Israel.

However, as we know, the Jews rejected him as their King of Israel, and the Messiah was cutoff, but not for himself, which of course was for propitiation of our sins.

Jesus's ministry is not what saves, but Jesus dying on the cross for the propitiation of our sins.

1John4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

It doesn't say "until Messiah the Prince shows up in Jerusalem riding a donkey as the King of Israel". It makes much more sense that it's talking about the time that He would first start to be recognized as the Messiah. So, a passage like the following is related to Daniel 9:25.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Linear: progressing from one stage to another in a single series of steps; sequential.

It is impossible for the physical to experience life in any other way. We do not live our lives in a theoretical way. Physicists proved that is impossible. Once observed, life only happens in a linear fashion. Even taking dolls out one by one, you have to leave the rest behind and experience only one at a time. Once experienced they still form a linear progression, no longer theory. Theoretically, you could just experience the smallest doll first, out of order, but you cannot undo that first experience and claim to experience it a second time later, it would be a first and singular event each time.


Yes, Revelation makes sense and is still linear, even if the Seals contain the Trumpets. The 6th Trumpet contains the 7 Thunders, and then the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet contains many events including the 7 vials.

One cannot jump to the 7 vials, experience them and then return to the Seals. Theoretical yes, one could take them out, experience them, put them back, and then experience them again as they would appear as normal as needed. It is not that God cannot change around the order as given. The fact that even though they are events inside of events, each one is not the same event. It is not a different view at a different angle.

One can only experience what will happen, and look back at a linear experience, because there is no experiencing multiple events found in Revelation at the exact same time. What we read is still in the theoretical, doll within doll format. But what we experience is no longer theoretical, but linear, as observation changes theory into reality. And the outer most doll is not a singularity where creation just dissolves, and there are literally no dolls inside this theoretical "big bang" event. There is a change in reality, but that event does not define and create all the other events inside of it's parameters. Some want 2 Peter 3 to be the overall defining factor of the Second Coming.

You're not making any sense. This is like saying that there can't be more than one passage of scripture that speaks of the same event, which is obviously not true.

There are a number of parallels in the book of Revelation looking at things from different angles. That is why you have the final wrath of Christ already about to come down in seal 6 (the silence in seal 7 means it's coming down when seal 7 is opened), and it also is portrayed as coming down in the 7th trumpet and 7th vial. And it's recorded in Revelation 14, 16, 19 and 20 as well. Either His final wrath comes down several different times, which makes no sense, or those are all speaking of the same event, which is the final wrath of the Lamb that will come down on the day He returns.

 

[Timtofly]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Though you do make a good point here, one thing that would put this to rest once and for all is if you or someone else could simply point out in verse 27 where any of the following words can be found----Messiah the Prince---Messiah. In verse 25 there was no problem mentioning Messiah the Prince when it was pertaining to Him. In verse 26 there was no problem mentioning Messiah when it was pertaining to Him. The same should be true in verse 27 if any of that is also pertaining to Him.

And since none of you can actually do that, point out in verse 27 where any of the following words can be found----Messiah the Prince---Messiah--I guess who is meant in this verse is going to have to remain debatable, which at least means the odds are somewhat more in favor of Messiah not being meant in verse 27, the fact the nearest antecedent to the pronouns in verse 27 is not Messiah in verse 26, but is the prince that shall come. Obviously, the prince that shall come is not meaning Messiah, otherwise it would have plainly said so, such as---and the people of Messiah shall come and destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The 70th week is the Revelation of Messiah the Prince. Verse 27 are the days of the 7th Trumpet. Many translations claim verse 27 is the 70th week. It is not.

As Messiah, the Word of God was the Atonement. As Prince, the Word of God confirms the Atonement Covenant at the end of the final harvest. The result of the confirmation is the winepress of God's wrath. Or the week of the 7th Trumpet is cut in half, and Satan is given 42 months. God's justice allows for desolation.

Many argue that the Word of God cannot set up a throne and temple on earth. They argue that there is no need, then claim God cannot allow the temple to be desolated. Whatever God does, God justifies His own actions. God is just in allowing humans to live in sin, as much as forcing them to live perfect lives without sin.

 

[Timtofly]

No that is not what it means. Jesus was cutoff in the space between the 69th week completion and the beginning of the 70 week.

The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39. All one has to do is back track through the verses from v21-29 of Jesus Himself speaking to know that.

Jesus was born after the 69th week. Those folks who try to defend their exactness are missing the whole point of Daniel 9. The 70th week was cut off. The Word of God is the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

Again, in verse 23 Gabriel wasn't referring back to that previous vision. He was referring to the vision/insight/prophecy that he proceeded to give in Daniel 9:24-27.

Gabriel did not present a vision to Daniel. Daniel did not see anything in v24-27.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Gabriel did not present a vision to Daniel. Daniel did not see anything in v24-27.

Do you deny that the word "vision" can refer to an insight or prophecy instead of a vision that you see in a dream? It can.

 

[Timtofly]

So, you're saying David's throne hasn't been built yet? Considering that David is dead, how can a throne built in the future be David's throne? I'm asking this with the assumption that you believe it's talking about a literal throne.

The same way some claim we have Adam's sin. Is sin literal? Is it just Adam's.

The promised deliverer was through Eve, through Abraham, through Isaac, through Israel, through David. Not even Solomon was dignified as part of that list. The Word of God will not sit on Eve's throne, Abraham's throne, Isaac's throne, nor Israel's throne. But I am sure the point has been made, that God chose it as David's throne. David was the only one honored as worthy of this throne bearing a former human's legacy.

Did you think David's throne is still hidden in a cave somewhere? I mean, none of the other people mentioned even had a throne, that we are aware of. Was David's throne only used by David, or did all the kings sit in it, until Nebuchadnezzar removed all kings from Jerusalem? Would it matter if Christ did use the exact same throne as David?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus was born after the 69th week. Those folks who try to defend their exactness are missing the whole point of Daniel 9. The 70th week was cut off. The Word of God is the 70th week.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Unreal.

 

[Douggg]

You are avoiding my question. Does the throne that you are calling David's throne currently exist? If so, where is it? If not, then how could a throne that you are calling David's throne, that you believe Jesus will sit on, be built in the future?

Your questions are flawed because they do not recognize that Jesus is God.

King David's throne was in Jerusalem. In Jerusalem is where Jesus's earthly throne will be.

But Jesus's throne will be in the temple, A temple does not exist in Jerusalem. So how can the throne Jesus will sit on, as the King of Israel, exist right now?

Again, your questions does not recognize that Jesus, descended from David through his mother Mary, is God.

Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37-38 said in Matthew 23:39, that Jerusalem would not see him again, until he is welcomed - them saying blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Earlier, upon enter Jerusalem, Jesus was hailed by his followers as the King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord, but the religious leaders plotted to have him killed.

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

David was the King of Israel. And David was anointed king by the prophet Samuel. Jesus is God, but also descended from David, through Mary. "to anoint the Most Holy", the sixth thing in Daniel 9:24, is when Jesus is set as the King of Israel by Divine decree in Jerusalem following Armageddon, in Palms 2.

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

 

[Timtofly]

The vision referred to in Daniel 9:21-24 is the vision about the little horn back in Daniel 8, time of the end.

Should the little horn be considered the Messiah and His role as a human?

That would be the only clarification given by Daniel. Gabriel is not declaring an AC at all in chapter 9. If anything the little horn is Jesus Christ. Would you rather Christ be part of the beast, or the association that an AC was the Word of God in the flesh?

There will never be a human AC. Either Antiochus Epiphanies was the little horn, and a future human will take on the role of a false prophet and carry on the work of the little horn, or nothing. Jesus Himself pointed out the AoD was what they all knew in His generation as fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanies. Either an approaching army, or a returned Antiochus Epiphanies would be what to flee from. Depending on whose witness, Luke or Matthew one is going by.

There were several governers who attempted to set up their banner and desecrate Jerusalem. The people complained, and Rome gave in, until the revolt itself, and then all Rome wanted was Jerusalem itself destroyed and purged of all it's Jewishness. It was not the same as Nebuchadnezzar. Rome had had enough of allowing the people to govern themselves. God allowed the Romans to be the cause of the desolation prophecied upon Jerusalem. But none of the Romans were the little horn.