The 7's are INSIDE each other - they CANNOT be an end-to-end future timetable

[Douggg]

Different book, different prophet, different subject - different NT quote reinterpreting the OT theme.

(question) It is a different Jesus who is cutoff in Daniel 9:26, from the Jesus who is speaking in Revelation , from the Jesus Who Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 ???

The theme is Jesus is coming, and His reward is with Him for them who are believers. The eye has not seen, nor the ear heard, nor has it entered into the hearts of men, the good things God has in store for those who love Him. And judgment on them who oppose Him.

We are the parable of the fig tree generation. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we in Christ who are alive, shall be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Comfort us, one another, with these words.

 

[Berean Tim]

I told you to stop blatantly lying about what that scripture says. It says He is cut off AFTER the 69th week ends. You can't even bring yourself to acknowledge that. That's pathetic. If He wasn't cut off AFTER the 69th week then scripture wouldn't say that, but it does.

Everyone knows that the word "after" doesn't mean "at the end of". Stop trying to redefine words to fit your doctrine.

I like reading your posts, stop accusing people of lying. I stop reading at that point

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I like reading your posts, stop accusing people of lying. I stop reading at that point

Sorry, but I'm not going to stop. What else can it be called when someone tries to change the definition of a word in scripture to fit their doctrine? There is no definition of the word "after" (Hebrew 'aḥar) that means "at the end of", yet that is what someone is trying to claim. That is unacceptable.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

See this period "." ? The black dot, if we put it under a microscope, it has a left edge and a right edge.

You are arguing that right edge of the black dot is after the left edge of the black dot. And acting as if that was a meaningful factor.

But the right edge is after the left edge and not at the end of it. It's not part of the left edge. Similarly, Christ died AFTER the 69th week, so you can't place His death within or at the end of the 69th week as you try to do. It happened AFTER it, which places it in the 70th week.

On the scale of 483 years - 4 days equates to a period.

I don't agree with your claim that He died only 4 days AFTER the first 69 weeks, but let's set that aside for now. Can you at least acknowledge that He died after the first 69 weeks were over, even if it was only 4 days after? If you include His death in the 69th week then it wouldn't be true that He died after the first 69 weeks as scripture says in Daniel 9:25-26. If you can't even acknowledge that He was cut off AFTER the end of the 69th week, then there's no point in us even discussing how long after the end of the 69th week He was cut off.

 

[Douggg]

But the right edge is after the left edge and not at the end of it. It's not part of the left edge. Similarly, Christ died AFTER the 69th week, so you can't place His death within or at the end of the 69th week as you try to do. It happened AFTER it, which places it in the 70th week.

I don't agree with your claim that He died only 4 days AFTER the first 69 weeks, but let's set that aside for now. Can you at least acknowledge that He died after the first 69 weeks were over, even if it was only 4 days after? If you include His death in the 69th week then it wouldn't be true that He died after the first 69 weeks as scripture says in Daniel 9:25-26. If you can't even acknowledge that He was cut off AFTER the end of the 69th week, then there's no point in us even discussing how long after the end of the 69th week He was cut off.

So you disagree with what Christians around the world celebrate as Palms Sunday and Good (Holy) Friday and Easter (Resurrection) Sunday?
_____________________________________________

The 4 days are a dot, the period, on the 69 weeks 483 years. Then a space, where the 7 years are in the next sentence.

 

[Douggg]

There is no definition of the word "after" (Hebrew 'aḥar) that means "at the end of", yet that is what someone is trying to claim. That is unacceptable.

I wrote "ending the 69 wks". For 69 weeks of years, the scale is 483 years. Daniel 9 does not say how long "after" 69 weeks, the messiah is cutoff. The information is available only in the four gospels. 4 days on a 483 years scale is a value approaching zero (infinitesimal). The 70th week remains unfulfilled and is Ezekiel 39.

As far as your accusations of lying, the Christian world and the Jewish world does not use the biblical word for the passover month. Are they lying because of that?

ABIB IN THE BIBLE

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So you disagree with what Christians around the world celebrate as Palms Sunday and Good (Holy) Friday and Easter (Resurrection) Sunday?

Of course not. Why would you ask that? Nothing I said would indicate such a thing.

The 4 days are a dot, the period, on the 69 weeks 483 years. Then a space, where the 7 years are in the next sentence.

Jesus was cut off AFTER the 69th week which means He was cut off during the 70th week. That is the point that you aren't willing to acknowledge. You're trying to desperately fit His crucifixion in at the end of the 69th week, but that contradicts Daniel 9:25-26.

And His crucifixion is not 4 days after the end of the 69th week, either. Daniel 9:27 indicates that He would have been cut off in the middle of the 70th week because His death is what established the new covenant and brought and end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I wrote "ending the 69 wks".

Yes, exactly. That means you are saying He was cut off at the end of the 69th week. That is what you're saying, right?

For 69 weeks of years, the scale is 483 years. Daniel 9 does not say how long "after" 69 weeks, the messiah is cutoff.

So, now you are acknowledging that He was cut off after the 69th week? Which do you believe, that He was cut off at the end of the 69th week or 4 days after the end of the 69th week?

The information is available only in the four gospels. 4 days on a 483 years scale is a value approaching zero (infinitesimal).

This is ridiculous. 4 days is not 0 days no matter how hard you try to make it so. Would you agree that Christ being cut off needed to occur within one of the 70 weeks? That has to be the case because the things described in Daniel 9:24 that were to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks could not be fulfilled without Christ's death and resurrection.

The 70th week remains unfulfilled and is Ezekiel 39.

Wrong. You can't even bring yourself to say that 4 days of the 70th week is fulfilled and the rest remains unfulfilled. Instead, you try to say that the entire 70th week remains unfulfilled. You don't understand that Christ fulfilled the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 long ago and He was cut off in the middle of the 70th week which established the new covenant and put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings.

As far as your accusations of lying, the Christian world and the Jewish world does not use the biblical word for the passover month. Are they lying because of that?

ABIB IN THE BIBLE

That has nothing to do with this discussion. Is it a lie to purposely change the definition of a word in scripture to fit your doctrine? How can it not be? But, now, it seems like you aren't even sure what you believe since you give contradictory statements. I can't tell for sure if you believe He was cut off at the end of the 69th week or 4 days after the end of the 69th week.

 

[DavidPT]

Would you agree that Christ being cut off needed to occur within one of the 70 weeks? That has to be the case because the things described in Daniel 9:24 that were to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks could not be fulfilled without Christ's death and resurrection.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Though you do make a good point here, one thing that would put this to rest once and for all is if you or someone else could simply point out in verse 27 where any of the following words can be found----Messiah the Prince---Messiah. In verse 25 there was no problem mentioning Messiah the Prince when it was pertaining to Him. In verse 26 there was no problem mentioning Messiah when it was pertaining to Him. The same should be true in verse 27 if any of that is also pertaining to Him.

And since none of you can actually do that, point out in verse 27 where any of the following words can be found----Messiah the Prince---Messiah--I guess who is meant in this verse is going to have to remain debatable, which at least means the odds are somewhat more in favor of Messiah not being meant in verse 27, the fact the nearest antecedent to the pronouns in verse 27 is not Messiah in verse 26, but is the prince that shall come. Obviously, the prince that shall come is not meaning Messiah, otherwise it would have plainly said so, such as---and the people of Messiah shall come and destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus was cut off AFTER the 69th week which means He was cut off during the 70th week

No that is not what it means. Jesus was cutoff in the space between the 69th week completion and the beginning of the 70 week.

The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39. All one has to do is back track through the verses from v21-29 of Jesus Himself speaking to know that.

 

[Douggg]

I can't tell for sure if you believe He was cut off at the end of the 69th week or 4 days after the end of the 69th week.

Jesus's arrival as the messiah in John 12:12-15 completed the 69th week.

4 days later into the space between the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week, Jesus was cutoff.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Though you do make a good point here, one thing that would put this to rest once and for all is if you or someone else could simply point out in verse 27 where any of the following words can be found----Messiah the Prince---Messiah. In verse 25 there was no problem mentioning Messiah the Prince when it was pertaining to Him. In verse 26 there was no problem mentioning Messiah when it was pertaining to Him. The same should be true in verse 27 if any of that is also pertaining to Him.

Why are you making man-made rules for how scripture should have been written in order for a certain thing to be true? Obviously, it's not possible for us to point out where the word Messiah is in verse 27 since it isn't there. But, it's absolutely silly to suggest that the verse can't be talking about the Messiah just because it doesn't mention Him by His title.

Let's put your man-made logic here to the test.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

If we interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:9 the way you interpret Daniel 9:27 then that would mean "him, whose coming is after the working of Satan" would be referring to the Lord since the Lord was the last individual mentioned before that. Oops! Not good. But we all know that "him, whose coming is after the working of Satan" is actually referring to "that Wicked" instead. But, using your logic makes it refer to the Lord! Can you see now the flaw in your logic?

So, what you said does nothing whatsoever to prove that verse 27 isn't talking about the Messiah.

And since none of you can actually do that, point out in verse 27 where any of the following words can be found----Messiah the Prince---Messiah--I guess who is meant in this verse is going to have to remain debatable, which at least means the odds are somewhat more in favor of Messiah not being meant in verse 27, the fact the nearest antecedent to the pronouns in verse 27 is not Messiah in verse 26, but is the prince that shall come.

No, that is not the case. The nearest antecedent is the Messiah because the prince mentioned in verse 26 is never the focus. Instead, it's the PEOPLE of the prince. The last individual to be in focus is the Messiah, not the prince.

Obviously, the prince that shall come is not meaning Messiah, otherwise it would have plainly said so, such as---and the people of Messiah shall come and destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The only obvious thing to me is that you're heavily influenced by doctrinal bias when interpreting the verse.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No that is not what it means. Jesus was cutoff in the space between the 69th week completion and the beginning of the 70 week.

All of the things listed in Daniel 9:24 were to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks (not during any time outside the 70 weeks, such as your supposed gap between the 69th and 70th weeks). How can Christ's death and resurrection not be within any of the 70 weeks when it is crucial to fulfilling the six things listed in Daniel 9:24?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus's arrival as the messiah in John 12:12-15 completed the 69th week.

4 days later into the space between the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week, Jesus was cutoff.

I disagree. It has to be that the beginning of Christ's ministry is what Daniel is alluding to when it says "...unto Messiah the Prince". That marked the beginning of the 70th week and then in the middle of the 70th week He was cut off which established the new covenant and put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. That fits perfectly with what it says in Daniel 9:27. No one else but Christ could put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings and He did that by way of His once for all sacrifice.

 

[Douggg]

All of the things listed in Daniel 9:24 were to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks (not during any time outside the 70 weeks, such as your supposed gap between the 69th and 70th weeks). How can Christ's death and resurrection not be within any of the 70 weeks when it is crucial to fulfilling the six things listed in Daniel 9:24?

The six things have not been fulfilled. The vision about the little horn person has not been fulfilled.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The vision about the little horn and prophecy have not been fulfilled. And Jesus is not sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem because Jesus has not returned.

 

[Douggg]

It has to be that the beginning of Christ's ministry is what Daniel is alluding to when it says "...unto Messiah the Prince".

No, the beginning of the Messiah's ministry is not mentioned, nor alluded to, in Daniel 9.

Go back to my post #31 and look at my chart. The prince who shall come is the little horn person. The 70th week begins with him. A big speech from the temple mount, which the law is read to the nation of Israel, Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The 2300 days about the little horn, including his stopping of the daily sacrifice, can only fit, if the full 70th week remains.

 

[Douggg]

@Spiritual Jew

The 70th week is the 7 years following Gog/Magog (my chart below), which contain the 2300 days about the little horn. From day 220, the resumption of the daily sacrifice again by the Jews (not by Christians of course), then 2300 days later the little horn person meets his end on day 2520 when Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

@Spritual Jew

For even more detail on the 70th week, this chart I did as the little horn goes though the stages of being the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast. The horsemen are the four horsemen of the apocalyps, where they appear in the 7 years.

 

[iamlamad]

I think it's great how the Bible Project (over 4 million views) point out the way the 7's are INSIDE each other like Matryoshka dolls rather than in sequence.

That's John's primary visual aid that shows Revelation is thematic, not linear.

It describes this phase of history after Jesus ascension and before his return.
It does not prescribe a specific sequence of events in the future - it cannot.
Time inside time inside time makes no sense and simply is not a timetable.
But it being a series of themes that John uses to roughly describe what the last 2000 years would be like - well - that makes much more sense of this symbolic literature.

Please watch the following 2 videos by the Bible Project.

Who is The Bible Project?

Tim went on to pursue a degree in theology from Western Seminary in Portland and a Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Jewish Studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Tim’s early research and writing interests focused on the manuscript history of the Bible and the formation of the biblical canon. He really loves ancient Greek and Hebrew texts!

After years of ministry as a local church pastor, Tim now serves as the Chief Education Officer for BibleProject and is an adjunct professor at Western Seminary. Tim is fascinated with the literary artistry and design of the Bible, and he is committed to helping people understand how the whole story works together and leads us to Jesus.
Tim Mackie PhD in Hebrew Bible, BibleProject Co-Founder | BibleProject™​

View attachment 303321

Sorry, but it is all error: someone trying to use human reasoning.
The seals seal a book that contains at the minimum, the 7 trumpets. No trumpet can sound until the 7 seals are opened first.
The truth is, read the book as it is written. Believe it as written. It is seals first, then the trumpets (in the first half of the week) then the vials (in the last half of the week.)

 

[iamlamad]

@Spritual Jew

For even more detail on the 70th week, this chart I did as the little horn goes though the stages of being the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast. The horsemen are the four horsemen of the apocalyps, where they appear in the 7 years.

View attachment 303475

Except John does not even mention the Antichrist Beast until after He (as the man of sin) enters the temple and does the abomination that divides the week.