I agree 110% with Joe!

[mark46]

I don't believe anyone, including the poor, is helped via the involuntary seizure of the fruits of one's labor.

So, you don't believe in taxes. There is nothing further for us to discuss.

 

[98cwitr]

So, you don't believe in taxes. There is nothing further for us to discuss.

Charities and churches do a far better job at helping the poor without enabling them or disincentivizing them to get out of poverty, whereas the government programs do exactly the opposite.

I don't believe compulsory taxation is fair, right, or just. I believe that the public ownership of labor and the fruits thereof is one step away from public slavery. I know we had taxes before the 16th amendment was ratified, and had a functioning government. I believe the federal government is grossly overreaching in their Constitutional scope and size.

There is now nothing in the Constitution that forbids the government taxing us all at 100% if they certainly wanted to thanks to the 16th.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

In your mother's lifetime, how much has she contributed into Medicare...personally?

About as much as she paid into private insurance, personally. Why?

 

[Phred]

Charities and churches do a far better job at helping the poor without enabling them or disincentivizing them to get out of poverty, whereas the government programs do exactly the opposite.

I don't believe compulsory taxation is fair, right, or just. I believe that the public ownership of labor and the fruits thereof is one step away from public slavery. I know we had taxes before the 16th amendment was ratified, and had a functioning government. I believe the federal government is grossly overreaching in their Constitutional scope and size.

There is now nothing in the Constitution that forbids the government taxing us all at 100% if they certainly wanted to thanks to the 16th.

You're wrong. I'm sure you think you're right. You're not. You live with the benefits of the things that taxes pay for and there is no way to say "I will not use those so I'm not paying for them." Police are going to come when called, as will fire. You drive on roads. Roaming gangs don't take your things and demand payment for protection. You have electricity and water and gas. You eat food that is not likely to poison you because someone decided to sell it anyway even though it's gone bad. Recalls of dangerous products are enforced. All because of taxes. I can go on for quite a long time here. But I doubt you care. You're inoculated with this "antigovernment" thing...

A charity can just stop at any moment. When things get really bad it can change its rules and give to only blonde haired Norwegian fruitbats if it chooses. That's the thing about charities. They can only help Catholics, or Jews, or Muslims. So with limited resources when things get bad they have to determine who they'll help. And if you're not one of the people they decide is "on their list" then you're just out of luck. It's why charities are NOT a good idea and NOT a better option than our government that helps all of us.

Your version of the world is sad and awful. I frankly don't care if some people are never lifted out of poverty as long as most are. But you'll be pointing at those few forever and screaming. Who cares? So we helped a few that didn't make it. Big deal. A couple were frauds. That's no reason to end the entire program when so many others were helped.

If you don't like paying for the things you get then take the advice conservatives have been giving us for years now. Leave. Go on. Get up and leave. Take your conservative self and just be gone. But if you're going to stay then pay for what you get here. Clean water, clean air, decent food and civilization.

And get vaccinated. It's part of living in society.

 

[98cwitr]

You're wrong. I'm sure you think you're right. You're not. You live with the benefits of the things that taxes pay for and there is no way to say "I will not use those so I'm not paying for them." Police are going to come when called, as will fire. You drive on roads. Roaming gangs don't take your things and demand payment for protection. You have electricity and water and gas. You eat food that is not likely to poison you because someone decided to sell it anyway even though it's gone bad. Recalls of dangerous products are enforced. All because of taxes. I can go on for quite a long time here. But I doubt you care. You're inoculated with this "antigovernment" thing...

You're misconstruing my position. I'm not anti-government nor anti-tax; I am against compulsory taxes on income. I could break down all your examples, but you and I both know that most of those things are paid for with state and local taxes, or are privately provided.

A charity can just stop at any moment. When things get really bad it can change its rules and give to only blonde haired Norwegian fruitbats if it chooses. That's the thing about charities. They can only help Catholics, or Jews, or Muslims. So with limited resources when things get bad they have to determine who they'll help. And if you're not one of the people they decide is "on their list" then you're just out of luck. It's why charities are NOT a good idea and NOT a better option than our government that helps all of us.

Not true. Churches just don't help Christians and leave everyone else out.

Your version of the world is sad and awful. I frankly don't care if some people are never lifted out of poverty as long as most are. But you'll be pointing at those few forever and screaming. Who cares? So we helped a few that didn't make it. Big deal. A couple were frauds. That's no reason to end the entire program when so many others were helped.

The world is fallen and broken, yes, but we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves.

If you don't like paying for the things you get then take the advice conservatives have been giving us for years now. Leave. Go on. Get up and leave. Take your conservative self and just be gone. But if you're going to stay then pay for what you get here. Clean water, clean air, decent food and civilization.

I'll take the left's tactic; stay and ensure our government is by the people.

And get vaccinated. It's part of living in society.

That's a discussion I'm happy to have between myself and my doctor. Thanks.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I'll take the left's tactic; stay and ensure our government is by the people.

You're welcome.

"Love it or leave it" was never a sensible slogan, anyway.

 

[Phred]

You're misconstruing my position. I'm not anti-government nor anti-tax; I am against compulsory taxes on income. I could break down all your examples, but you and I both know that most of those things are paid for with state and local taxes, or are privately provided.

What you are is, frankly, against other people using *your* money for things *you* don't agree with that day. It falls flat when compared to all the times anyone has protested against war or violence or I dunno, police killing citizens and you've painted them as "commies" or some other derogatory, demeaning slap in the face. Income tax isn't fun but it works pretty well. It's better than a VAT tax or the so-call "flat tax" which isn't flat or fair. And it avoids having more affluent municipalities providing their citizens services that other places cannot provide.

Not true. Churches just don't help Christians and leave everyone else out.

Today. For the most part. Again, don't skim. Read. When things get bad as they tend to do every few decades and your charities have to choose who they will help with their limited funds... Everybody or their flock? And I can't help but constantly picture Joel Osteen closing and locking his beautiful Basketball arena when Houston flooded. Charities do whatever they want. The government is us. All of us.

That's a discussion I'm happy to have between myself and my doctor. Thanks.

Until you do and until you're vaccinated stay home and don't pretend you can be a part of society. Thanks.

 

[mark46]

All taxes are compulsory.

You might be more clear.

You are opposed to income taxes.

What federal taxes do you favor to pay for the military, and other federal responsibilities?

What types of local taxes do you favor.

We all understand that charities should have a major role. But they should not be counted on to do all of social spending. For example, in NH the Roman Catholic Church spends more than the state local governments.

You're misconstruing my position. I'm not anti-government nor anti-tax; I am against compulsory taxes on income..

 

[98cwitr]

All taxes are compulsory.

You are opposed to income taxes.

What federal taxes do you favor to pay for the military, and other federal responsibilities?

What types of local taxes do you favor.

We all understand that charities should have a major role. But they should not be counted on to do all of social spending. For example, in NH the Roman Catholic Church spends more than the state local governments.

Not really. There's taxes on liquor and lottery of which I don't pay because I don't drink or play the lotto. No one forced me to buy a house, but knowing that I must pay property taxes comes with the territory. Tariffs are okay in my book. I like the idea of the FAIR Tax. I am okay with local sales taxes, which can be partially escaped by growing your own food.

I think all charities combined could do more common good and do not. I think that government programs incentivize poverty and punish coming out of it. Most charities don't have this habit nor effect, and help build relationships. No one has a relationship with their WIC provider.

 

[Phred]

Not really. There's taxes on liquor and lottery of which I don't pay because I don't drink or play the lotto. No one forced me to buy a house, but knowing that I must pay property taxes comes with the territory. Tariffs are okay in my book. I like the idea of the FAIR Tax. I am okay with local sales taxes, which can be partially escaped by growing your own food.

I think all charities combined could do more common good and do not. I think that government programs incentivize poverty and punish coming out of it. Most charities don't have this habit nor effect, and help build relationships. No one has a relationship with their WIC provider.

Let me hazard a guess. You consume far more conservative media than other kinds...

Here are a few things you might not have thought all the way through.

A tariff on say, China, is something you end up paying if you purchase anything made in China. No manufacturer ever just pays the tariff or tax. They simply add the cost onto whatever it is they make and pass that on to the end purchaser. So if a tariff is added by the country importing something then the people who purchase it end up paying that tariff. If you want to make that tariff actually DO something you have to make it high enough to force manufacturers to move their manufacturing from China to the US or say, Mexico. Trump's tariffs just added cost to everything but weren't high enough to actually DO anything. Not one manufacturer changed how they did business because of them. We all just pay more. Stupid people think that China is paying us now. No, we pay them more and they pay the tariffs. Trump got to look tough on China.

The FAIR Tax is unfair to lower income earners. When every single dollar is important to you it matters that you pay our more of them. So if everyone has to pay the same rate then even though you might make 1,000,000 dollars paying 17% doesn't affect you in the slightest. Someone earning 28,000 of those green things needs every single one. If you earn less you should pay less. If you earn more you should pay more. It's a concept they first discovered on a wall in Athens during a war. The rich guys up there realized that they had far more to protect than the soldier in the field did. They had many houses and buildings that they owned. While the soldier might have an apartment. Why should they be paying the same percentage? So the rich guys ponied up and paid a higher percentage of their wealth to protect Athens. It was the first progressive tax. And here you are trying to move us backwards.

I think you want to believe that about charities. Great. After you pay your taxes you can give to any one you want.

Lastly, growing your own food. In the city. When you're already working two or three jobs. And likely caring for kids. If there was ever a statement that said, "I have no clue what it's like to be poor" that's it.

 

[Always in His Presence]

A tariff on say, China, is something you end up paying if you purchase anything made in China. No manufacturer ever just pays the tariff or tax. They simply add the cost onto whatever it is they make and pass that on to the end purchaser.

Which is EXACTLY why high corporate taxes are bad for the country. Besides the larger corps will move their fund away from the US and that does no one any good.

Remember when Trump lowered the corp tax rates:

Apple, Capitalizing on New Tax Law, Plans to Bring Billions in Cash Back to U.S.

Apple announces plans to repatriate billions in overseas cash, says it will contribute $350 billion to the US economy over the next 5 years

• Apple says the new tax law will help it will contribute $350 billion to the U.S. economy over the next five years.
• It says it will create 20,000 new jobs and open a new campus.
Apple announces plans to repatriate billions in overseas cash, says it will contribute $350 billion to the US economy over the next 5 years
​

 

[Always in His Presence]

The FAIR Tax is unfair to lower income earners.

No - it isn't. Perhaps you have the fair tax mixed up with a flat tax.

How FAIRtax Works

The FairTax provides a progressive program called a prebate. This gives every legal resident household an “advance refund” at the beginning of each month so that purchases made up to the poverty level are tax-free. The prebate prevents an unfair burden on low-income families. Learn more .

It is an interesting read.​

 

[mark46]

Let us stipulate that the poor will be given payments that will end up offsetting their taxes.

What you want for the billionaires to pay the same on their consumption as those making $100K. You think that this is "fair".

I think that a progressive system is more fair in that the result is a more fair society.

I get it that some would have the billionaires pay the same tax on their planes as the Middle Class would pay on their college educations. I just disagree.

No - it isn't. Perhaps you have the fair tax mixed up with a flat tax.

How FAIRtax Works

The FairTax provides a progressive program called a prebate. This gives every legal resident household an “advance refund” at the beginning of each month so that purchases made up to the poverty level are tax-free. The prebate prevents an unfair burden on low-income families. Learn more .

It is an interesting read.​

 

[Phred]

No - it isn't. Perhaps you have the fair tax mixed up with a flat tax.

How FAIRtax Works

The FairTax provides a progressive program called a prebate. This gives every legal resident household an “advance refund” at the beginning of each month so that purchases made up to the poverty level are tax-free. The prebate prevents an unfair burden on low-income families. Learn more .

It is an interesting read.​

It is different. Sort of a VAT tax. Not sure how I feel about it yet.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Let us stipulate that the poor will be given payments that will end up offsetting their taxes.

What you want for the billionaires to pay the same on their consumption as those making $100K. You think that this is "fair".

I think that a progressive system is more fair in that the result is a more fair society.

I get it that some would have the billionaires pay the same tax on their planes as the Middle Class would pay on their college educations. I just disagree.

Fair: Equitable - an even plying field. Yeah that's what is right.

Keeping in mind it eliminated Federal Income tax for both employee and company. Your take home pay is not taxed.

A family makes 100k and spends 60k - Fair tax is 23% (housing is not included) 23% would be 13,800

A family making 1 billion - and spends 100 million (low est) 23% would be 23,000,000 a year

All the loop holes are closed - tell me - who is paying more in taxes?

Think about this as a side note: - the hundreds of millions made in illegal drugs, now pay taxes through their purchases.

 

[Always in His Presence]

It is different. Sort of a VAT tax. Not sure how I feel about it yet.

Similar to a VAT - but lower income people come out way ahead of where they are now and there are no loopholes - no IRS - no complex forms.

 

[Phred]

Similar to a VAT - but lower income people come out way ahead of where they are now and there are no loopholes - no IRS - no complex forms.

What happens when we start a robust black market?

 

[TLK Valentine]

What happens when we start a robust black market?

The Law will sweep into action... against the poor, of course.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

I like the idea of the FAIR Tax. I am okay with local sales taxes, which can be partially escaped by growing your own food.

Or you could do what Australia did and introduce a Goods and Services Tax that broadened the tax base while exempting certain classes of goods deemed essential (fresh food, medicine, some forms of education).

It doesn't remove the need for income or some other taxes, but it is far better than the random collection of sales taxes that used to exist (similar to what goes on in US states) and it captures many services that previously got away tax-free (which considering most first world economies have become more service-oriented is a good thing).

 

[mark46]

1) I don't think that the estimate of a 23% tax is near enough to fund what I would label as needed service. Perhaps it would be enough for the services that you wish to have the government fund.

2) All loopholes are almost never closed. Instead of search the world for countries with lower effective tax rates, millionaires would switch to finding countries with low VAT rates to live and spend their money. They could make their money where there is no income tax and spend large amounts were the VAT is low.
===============
Folks could make the millions of income in the US, and spend lots of it in say Switzerland where the VAT is 7.5%. I'm sure there are lots of other places to spend the money.

I presume that you would try to collect the VAT on items bought overseas.
============
BOTTOM LINE
No personal income tax plus a high VAT is a reasonable approach, especially if many items are excluded (e.g.) and the poor are given subsidies.

You would need to collect the tax on imports.

Finally, the issue of corporate tax rates must be addressed.

Fair: Equitable - an even plying field. Yeah that's what is right.

Keeping in mind it eliminated Federal Income tax for both employee and company. Your take home pay is not taxed.

A family makes 100k and spends 60k - Fair tax is 23% (housing is not included) 23% would be 13,800

A family making 1 billion - and spends 100 million (low est) 23% would be 23,000,000 a year

All the loop holes are closed - tell me - who is paying more in taxes?

Think about this as a side note: - the hundreds of millions made in illegal drugs, now pay taxes through their purchases.