I agree 110% with Joe!

[ArmenianJohn]

"Communism is a failed system, universally failed system," Biden admitted. "I don't see socialism as a very useful substitute, but that's another story," he continued without elaborating.

100% in agreement on both items.

Communism is a failed system and Socialism is not a very useful substitute.

Socialism is very useful, we use it for a lot of great things in the USA. Need to use it more, in fact.

I keep saying in these forums that Biden is a conservative and conservatives in here scoff at that, but here you are helping me prove my point. You even agree with him 110%! He's far too conservative for me and I'm not surprised that conservatives will agree with his statement.

 

[98cwitr]

Someone need to explain to me how Medicare drives costs through the roof.

Just a couple of weeks ago, I had an outpatient prostate procedure done. The doctor and hospital charged $19,000. Medicare paid one tenth of that, $1,900, and since they allowed only that much, my secondary insurance, Tricare (military) didn't pay any more.

The doctor specializes in that procedure...he does four or five a day. This was an "old man's procedure" that practically no man younger than 65 would ever have. I expect Medicare doesn't pay any more for any of them than they paid for mine, so $1,900 is pretty much all he ever gets.

And for that matter, my previous employee insurance never paid the full amount charged, either. And neither of them will pay for a whole lot of tests, examinations, and procedures doctors say are advisable.

So how are they driving up costs? The price we pay for insurance is more than the costs they pay for medical services--which is how health insurance companies and the medical billing industry make their money. It's not the doctors, it's the middlemen.

Are you familiar with how price fixing affects a market?

The Economics of Price Fixing | D. T. Armentano

 

[TLK Valentine]

Are you familiar with how price fixing affects a market?

The Economics of Price Fixing | D. T. Armentano

So why then do we let the insurance companies fix the prices?

 

[98cwitr]

So why then do we let the insurance companies fix the prices?

"we" don't...politicians who are in their pockets do, and a lot of them are GOP (this is a primary reason why I am a conservative and not a member of the GOP)!

We can fix this by first getting each state with a certificate of need law on the books repealed. That will at least provide a wide highway for market competition to drive down prices. There was a time in America when medical insurance was unnecessary exception for the largest procedures or if you were living below the poverty line. We need to get back to that. I would like us to get back to being able to afford, without insurance and out of pocket, most out patient procedures from a local community doctor who knows my family. We have rapidly moved away from such things.

 

[TLK Valentine]

"we" don't...politicians who are in their pockets do, and a lot of them are GOP (this is a primary reason why I am a conservative and not a member of the GOP)![/QUOTE[

And "we" keep re-electing those politicians(well, I don't; I'm just a wacky liberal) because the alternative is the big, bad Socialism!

We can fix this by first getting each state with a certificate of need law on the books repealed. That will at least provide a wide highway for market competition to drive down prices. There was a time in America when medical insurance was unnecessary exception for the largest procedures or if you were living below the poverty line. We need to get back to that. I would like us to get back to being able to afford, without insurance and out of pocket, most out patient procedures from a local community doctor who knows my family. We have rapidly moved away from such things.

And we'll keep moving away, I'm afraid-- medical insurance is a $2B/yr. industry, and they've going to fight to maintain their profits...

 

[98cwitr]

We just have a better alternative then giving the government the keys to the healthcare car; deregulation and freeing the market. Honestly, keep medicaid around, and give us an opt-out option for medicare. I don't need it, and really no one does. If I lose my job or get hurt, I could simply go on medicaid because then I will be either poor or disabled.

 

[RDKirk]

Are you familiar with how price fixing affects a market?

The Economics of Price Fixing | D. T. Armentano

My point is: The prices actually being paid, if fixed at all (and I'd argue that they aren't) are fixed low.

The prices being charged are just fabrications with hardly any basis at all. If a doctor has been getting only 10% of what he's charging, and he's still in business, then the prices he's charging are a fantasy not based on his actual costs of doing business. Moreover, when investigators have gone "price shopping" for healthcare services in various areas, they've found prices for the same service to be all over the map even within the same city, varying by thousands of dollars. The charges are fantasies.

 

[98cwitr]

My point is: The prices actually being paid, if fixed at all (and I'd argue that they aren't) are fixed low.

The prices being charged are just fabrications with hardly any basis at all. If a doctor has been getting only 10% of what he's charging, and he's still in business, then the prices he's charging are a fantasy not based on his actual costs of doing business. Moreover, when investigators have gone "price shopping" for healthcare services in various areas, they've found prices for the same service to be all over the map even within the same city, varying by thousands of dollars. The charges are fantasies.

Right. Because Medicare and Medicaid fix prices low, providers make up for those losses in margins by driving costs up for those privately insured. This started in the 1970s and the statistics are clear: The implementation of government healthcare not only drove costs up for those not under those plans, but MADE those NOT under those plans both pay the higher costs for themselves AND provide the money to cover people other than themselves. The middle class has both boulders on their shoulders. Who is helping them? No one.

 

[RDKirk]

Right. Because Medicare and Medicaid fix prices low, providers make up for those losses in margins by driving costs up for those privately insured.

As I said before, private insurance companies don't pay those prices either, so, nope. Neither government nor insurance companies are paying the prices charged.

 

[mark46]

We seem to want to stop price fixing by drug companies. What does that mean in a market system? Are we to get rid of patents? If not, why wouldn't a company charge whatever folks will pay?

Who pays for research and development? Who sets prices? In the end, the price fixing REDUCES what a company might charge for a newly patented drug. We have higher prices in the US because the government does LESS price fixing.

 

[98cwitr]

As I said before, private insurance companies don't pay those prices either, so, nope. Neither government nor insurance companies are paying the prices charged.

They do, and far beyond what medicare and medicaid are paying for services. I've got the statements to prove it. We pay one thing, the US government pays another, and with OUR tax dollars. It's a complete and public sham.

 

[mark46]

I would point out that practically nobody is proposing fully government owned healthcare system, and not many people are talking about doing away with supplemental insurance plans. Single payer is really the only government system being seriously discussed in the US.

Agreed.

"Medicare For All" is a favorite slogan. I would note that Medicare is a mixed system which includes a government insurance system (we pay our premiums for a lifetime with no coverage, and then current premiums that vary with income). In addition, we have lots that isn't covered without supplemental policies. So, if we want cover want full coverage of medical services, we have private insurance.

How does the government make up for the insurance that workers have paid in? A worker at 65 has paid in Medicare payments for more than 40 years, which partially pays for his premiums after 65. If we add even 50 year olds, we need to make up for the Medicare insurance premiums not paid that need to cover 15 additional years. This cost is very large. And, NO, we cannot have individuals have the option to buy in. All the most sick would buy in, bankrupting the system.

A DIFFERENT SYSTEM FOR THOSE UNDER 65
First, we need to consider the "status quo": Obamacare with some improvements. Yes, there may need to be higher government payments to the poor to help them pay for insurance.

How terrible is the system that the vast majority have, the one paid for by employers? Yes, there needs to be a government program for those not working; we call that Obamacare (the MA model). States or groups states might choose other models; and yes, we can have a public option.

 

[mark46]

They do, and far beyond what medicare and medicaid are paying for services. I've got the statements to prove it. We pay one thing, the US government pays another, and with OUR tax dollars. It's a complete and public sham.

Yes, Medicare pays lower rates, and other pay higher rates. My complaint is that Medicare pays too much. They should negotiate better, especially with drug companies. I well understand that there are those who don't believe in federal social programs including SS, Medicare, Medicare Part D, Medicaid and Obamacare. They also oppose paying child care credits, increased child care deductions and earned income subsidies.

We disagree. That has been the case at least since Roosevelt was elected. As a society, we choose what services are federal guarantees to citizens. This set has services has expanded in the past 90 years as it has in all developed countries. And the services provided by the US compared to other developed countries continues to decline. We fight over the rights to medical care, clean air, clean water, child care, education, transportation, parental leave and so much more that people in other devloped countries take for granted.

In the past 70 years, our tax rates are lower, the rich are richer. And Republicans argue to reduce services, lest we raise their taxes. Let us set taxes at what they WERE in say 2000 and work from there.

The rich might also return to the Treasury the underpayments from over the past 20 years. Are service really not possible under 2000 tax rates?

We have stepped backwards in our commitments to use a significant portion of our wealth providing benefits to the poor and weak among us.

WERE WE IN HORRIBLE SHAPE FROM 1980-2000 UNDER HIGHER TAX RATES
I submit that we were in much better shape in those 20 years than in the last 20 years.

 

[98cwitr]

Yes, Medicare pays lower rates, and other pay higher rates. My complaint is that Medicare pays too much. They should negotiate better, especially with drug companies. I well understand that there are those who don't believe in federal social programs including SS, Medicare, Medicare Part D, Medicaid and Obamacare. They also oppose paying child care credits, increased child care deductions and earned income subsidies.

We disagree. That has been the case at least since Roosevelt was elected. As a society, we choose what services are federal guarantees to citizens. This set has services has expanded in the past 90 years as it has in all developed countries. And the services provided by the US compared to other developed countries continues to decline. We fight over the rights to medical care, clean air, clean water, child care, education, transportation, parental leave and so much more that people in other devloped countries take for granted.

In the past 70 years, our tax rates are lower, the rich are richer. And Republicans argue to reduce services, lest we raise their taxes. Let us set taxes at what they WERE in say 2000 and work from there.

The rich might also return to the Treasury the underpayments from over the past 20 years. Are service really not possible under 2000 tax rates?

We have stepped backwards in our commitments to use a significant portion of our wealth providing benefits to the poor and weak among us.

WERE WE IN HORRIBLE SHAPE FROM 1980-2000 UNDER HIGHER TAX RATES
I submit that we were in much better shape in those 20 years than in the last 20 years.

Simple solution that solves ALL of this: repeal the 16th amendment.

 

[mark46]

Simple solution that solves ALL of this: repeal the 16th amendment.

So, replace the income tax with a national sales tax with rebates to the poor.

I believe that you simply don't want society to spend the money to help the poor.

 

[RDKirk]

They do, and far beyond what medicare and medicaid are paying for services. I've got the statements to prove it. We pay one thing, the US government pays another, and with OUR tax dollars. It's a complete and public sham.

No, they don't. I've got reams of "Not a Bills" myself.

 

[RDKirk]

So, replace the income tax with a national sales tax with rebates to the poor.

I believe that you simply don't want society to spend the money to help the poor.

I believe that most of the federal government was financed by the national liquor tax prior to the national income tax. The trade-off for prohibition was the establishment of the national income tax.

 

[98cwitr]

So, replace the income tax with a national sales tax with rebates to the poor.

I believe that you simply don't want society to spend the money to help the poor.

I believe that there is some deep seeded confusion between who and what is "society" and "government"

I don't believe anyone, including the poor, is helped via the involuntary seizure of the fruits of one's labor. The voluntary charity of private institutions and churches, who willfully and voluntarily aid those in need do so in true benevolence to society. Our current situation only enables the poor to stay poor while taking by force from everyone else.

And yes, the FAIR tax would be far better in ensuring that everyone pays their "fair share" that seems to be such a concern of those who preach such virtuous rhetoric to us.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

They do, and far beyond what medicare and medicaid are paying for services. I've got the statements to prove it. We pay one thing, the US government pays another, and with OUR tax dollars. It's a complete and public sham.

I've got all my mom's dialysis bills showing zero balance due. they also show the $100k cost for dialysis for insurance companies and then the $30k cost for Medicare and then the Medicare deduction and then the supplemental deduction. And in both my parents' entire decade or so of being ill in their old age I only had to contact Medicare twice and got a quick resolution, whereas in the past 2 years dealing with my own medical issues I have gone back and forth at least 20 times to get my insurance company to pay their fair share. And in one case they still haven't.

 

[98cwitr]

I've got all my mom's dialysis bills showing zero balance due. they also show the $100k cost for dialysis for insurance companies and then the $30k cost for Medicare and then the Medicare deduction and then the supplemental deduction. And in both my parents' entire decade or so of being ill in their old age I only had to contact Medicare twice and got a quick resolution, whereas in the past 2 years dealing with my own medical issues I have gone back and forth at least 20 times to get my insurance company to pay their fair share. And in one case they still haven't.

In your mother's lifetime, how much has she contributed into Medicare...personally?