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ArmenianJohn

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Ministers of God do godly things.
This is not Biblical. Apparently, per Romans 13, God can use ungodly people who are serving as governors to be His Ministers unto us for good.

Do you think that the government of Rome did godly things? Because God commanded subjection to that government.

If not Rome, then which "godly" government in history was God saying is/was His Minister unto us for good? Can you name one? The only one I can think of is the first government of Israel, which God Himself headed. Then the people demanded King Saul and I don't know of any government in history that has done godly things. Unless you mean that they do SOME godly things, and then probably every government in the world can be said to have done at least SOME godly things.

In any case, your statement is your own and I don't see it in God's Word; in fact, I see the opposite.

For your understanding to be correct, we should support every evil government in history. I’m sure that you don’t want to do that.
No. For my understanding to be correct, we ought to be subject to every government in history. That doesn't mean "support". One can subject himself to a government without actively supporting that government. That's what the Apostles and prophets did, they subjected themselves to their governments in obedience to God.

For your understanding to be correct, there have been "godly" and "evil" governments throughout history, yet that is completely subjective. From a Biblical perspective, no earthly government in history has been free of evil, so I don't know what governments in history you consider "godly". Perhaps the first Christian government in Armenia after King Tiridates was converted was as godly as any government could be, but no doubt they weren't perfect and free of evil either.
 
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whatbogsends

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Nowhere was this more prevalent than when Twitter suspended the account of Dr. Martin Kuldorff for suggesting that masking wasn't the boon everyone said it was. I'd like to point out that Dr. Martin Kuldorff is a respected scientist, epidemiologist and professor at Harvard Medical School. His works have been cited over 26,000 times according to Google Scholar. Yet Twitter decided that this highly respected professor and doctor was "promoting misinformation" and suspended his account. That should concern everyone.

Absolutely agree with you about Kulldorf. Definitely a voice of reason in this chaos, and it's absurd when Twitter censors his fact-bases opinion because it contradicts the political narrative.
 
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probinson

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Measuring the effects of a mask mandate, in of itself, isn't a scientific way to measure the efficacy of actually wearing a mask. Measurements of particles passing through the mask, etc. are needed to test the efficacy of masks.

What is also necessary is an understanding of behavioral impact. Proper fit. Filtration of material. Impact of facial hair. Length of wearing. Proper handling. All of those things would impact the efficacy of the mask and could not be tested mechanistically in a laboratory environment.

But you are correct that this is off-topic. It is, however, refreshing to speak with someone on this topic that can offer a more nuanced and reasoned argument than MASKS GOOD!
 
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probinson

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Just saw this tweet in response to Dr. Kuldorff posting an article saying the hypothetical benefits to adults do not outweigh the risks of vaccinating children (the names have been removed to protect the ignorant);

Screen Shot 2021-07-15 at 9.11.57 PM.png


This tweet is the definition of misinformation.
  1. Children over 5 are NOT at greater risk of death from COVID infection than from a flu infection. They are literally at greater risk of drowning than they are in dying from COVID.
  2. "Long COVID" damage is absolutely NOT common among the young as this study shows (Long-term symptoms after SARS-CoV-2 infection in school children: population-based cohort with 6-months follow-up)
Let's pause for a moment of sorrow that we now live in a society where some random dude on Twitter feels empowered to call two medical doctors "morally monstrous" for posting an evidence-based paper about vaccination.

Any chance Twitter will fact-check this tweet or take any kind of action against it. Don't hold your breath...
 
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Fantine

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Beware of skeptics. Snowballing a thread with articles from the "BMJ Journal" doesn't mean it's right. When these conjectures hit NYT or WAPO I may take notice.

Closing the border could have helped a smidge, but every single thing he did afterwards was an unmitigated disaster.

And I got it. He owned hotels. He couldn't afford to close them. Unless we looked at COVID as an economic problem, he could go bankrupt.

Saying there would probably only be a few dozen cases might result in refrigerator trucks filled with corpses in NY, but hey, his hotels stayed open.

And that was the attitude of businesses whose support Trump and his team wore like NASCAR emblems. Keep business open; sow doubt among the base.

Muzzling the experts and elevating quacks.
 
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Tanj

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Yet Twitter decided that this highly respected professor and doctor was "promoting misinformation" and suspended his account. That should concern everyone.

It's far more concerning that anyone is concerned about something that happened in the twitter sewer.
 
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Hammster

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This is not Biblical. Apparently, per Romans 13, God can use ungodly people who are serving as governors to be His Ministers unto us for good.
How God uses ungodly nations/governments isn’t in view here.
Do you think that the government of Rome did godly things? Because God commanded subjection to that government.
Yes, they did do godly things.

So they apostles obeyed God and defied tyrants.
 
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KCfromNC

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That's actually a great question.

For children, the risks of the vaccine outweigh the risks of COVID. Why? Because kids have a higher incidence of myocarditis when being vaccinated, so much so that the CDC and FDA required a warning to be placed on the vaccine. Is the risk small? Yes. But it's larger than the risk posed by COVID to adolescents, which is less deadly to young people than the flu according to data.

I'd be curious to see the numbers, because it seems like there's some apples to oranges comparisons going on. But without actual data, it is hard to tell.
 
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KCfromNC

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But don't take my word for it. Go read the studies for yourself. These aren't fringe, conspiracy sites. The systematic review referenced above was done by the CDC and published May 2020, right about the same time the CDC was telling everyone they needed to wear masks.

Speaking of studies - here's an interesting one about the effects of mask wearing and social distancing : Decreased Influenza Activity During the COVID-19 Pandemic ...

Following widespread adoption of community mitigation measures to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, the percentage of U.S. respiratory specimens submitted for influenza testing that tested positive decreased from >20% to 2.3% and has remained at historically low interseasonal levels (0.2% versus 1–2%).
Hopefully all of the nitpicking around the edges of mask policy doesn't cause people to lose sight of how overwhelmingly effective they were.
 
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Mayzoo

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I'm not 98cwitr, but I'll answer;

Truth. Honesty. Accurate reporting of data. Explanations of flip flops.

The public health response to the pandemic has been dreadful. It's almost as if public health officials were trying to see just how much they could make the public distrust them. From one day to the next, shifting recommendations with no explanation, data or evidence to support them.

I'll give you an example; 2 days ago, Dr. Fauci said in an interview there is "no doubt" that 3-year olds should be masked in daycare. But the WHO says that no one under the age of 5 should be masked at all. Specifically, the WHO's guidance says (emphasis in original);

In general, children aged 5 years and under should not be required to wear masks. This advice is based on the safety and overall interest of the child and the capacity to appropriately use a mask with minimal assistance.
Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Children and masks

Hmm. Dr. Fauci said there is "no doubt" that 3-year olds should be wearing masks. The WHO says that those 5 and under should NOT be rehired to wear masks "based on the safety and overall interest of the child". This is a direct contradiction in public health recommendations.

Social distancing. Fauci and the CDC say 6 feet. The WHO says nearly half that distance is OK at 1 meter (3.2 feet). Which one is correct?

These are simple examples of recommendations not based on science, evidence or data. They're literally made up out of thin air, and there is no quality data to support any of it. Even worse, there IS high quality evidence (available prior to the pandemic) that shows masks ARE NOT effective at slowing the spread of the disease. The CDC themselves did a systematic review of 10 RCTs of masking. Their review said (emphasis added);

One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group.

The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies

None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group

Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

But don't take my word for it. Go read the studies for yourself. These aren't fringe, conspiracy sites. The systematic review referenced above was done by the CDC and published May 2020, right about the same time the CDC was telling everyone they needed to wear masks.

Now the answer I normally get for this is that science evolves. This is a true statement and simultaneously a distraction from the main point. Almost all of the studies of mask efficacy are observational, mechanistic and do not take into account behavioral science. They are literally at the lowest tier of the evidence pyramid, while RCTs and systematic reviews sit at the peak of the evidence pyramid. Why did public health discard decades of established, high quality science in favor of the lowest quality evidence available? Why did they completely disregard all pandemic preparedness plans and go with the great lockdown experiment of 2020?

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. Public health hasn't answered any of these questions. They expect we should just sit back, shut up and listen to them because they are the "experts" and they know better. But that's not how this works. These are valid questions that deserve answers. And since public health has taken the approach they have, there is a large population of people that now distrust them. Heck, even doctors and nurses have lost their trust in the CDC and the FDA;

Out of nearly 2,000 U.S. nurses surveyed on Medscape (WebMD's sister site for health care professionals) between May 25 and June 3, 77% said their trust in the CDC has decreased since the start of the pandemic, and 51% said their trust in the FDA has decreased. Similarly, out of nearly 450 U.S. doctors surveyed in the same time period, 77% said their trust in the CDC has decreased and 48% said their trust in the FDA has decreased.

Trust in CDC, FDA Took a Beating During Pandemic

I know it would be more convenient if you could just write us all off as science/COVID deniers and other pejoratives, but if you really want to understand why vaccination uptake is so low, this is an excellent place to start.

You stated Faucci's advice is from 2 days ago, post delta variant that has been shown to afflict children at a higher frequency than the other variants.

The WHO article you posted was from 8-21-2020, well before the delta variant.

Do you want them to take a stance and not change that stance regardless of new information or changing circumstances?
 
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probinson

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It's far more concerning that anyone is concerned about something that happened in the twitter sewer.
I would agree that what happens on Twitter should be of no consequence to the real world. But that has not been the case with the pandemic. Twitter celebrity doctors have been opining, mostly incorrectly, all throughout the pandemic. Which would be all fine and dandy if that's where it stopped. But it isn't. Those same Twitter celebrities have had a driving voice in pandemic policy. They've been employed as "fact-checkers" to set people straight. Check out this article that illustrates just how much influence Twitter celebrities have;

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/91526
 
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probinson

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Beware of skeptics.

Keep pushing the propaganda!

Snowballing a thread with articles from the "BMJ Journal" doesn't mean it's right. When these conjectures hit NYT or WAPO I may take notice.

Interesting comment, and weird attempt to marginalize a medical journal. From the BMJ website;

BMJ started out 180 years ago as a medical journal, publishing articles on stillborn children, amputation at the shoulder and the climate of the Isle of Wight.

...

Now, as a values-driven company and global brand, we work toward our vision for 'a healthier world.' We do this by partnering with more than 8,000 medical organisations worldwide so they can provide their users with the best available resources. We make our content available in 14 languages, and create evidence-based subscription-based products to help clinicians better tackle today’s most critical healthcare challenges. It is inspiring to see the rapid growth of students and qualified doctors around the globe progressing their careers and achieving accreditation with our e-learning modules and events.

We are well renowned for publishing The BMJ (mostly referred to as the British Medical Journal) - one of the world’s top four most cited general medical journals with a 27.604 impact factor. (Impact Factors are used to measure the importance of a journal by calculating the number of times selected articles are cited within the last few years. The higher the impact factor, the more highly ranked the journal. It is one tool you can use to compare journals in a subject category.
)

BMJ at a glance, Our story | BMJ

Did you catch that? You're calling me a "skeptic" because I'm posting articles from a 180-year old medical journal that is one of the top four medical journals cited in the world while you elevate yourself the one that knows more about COVID because you get your medical information from the NYT and WaPo. Thank you for illustrating in a single sentence why this pandemic has been such a disaster.

But, since you've elevated the NYT to the quintessential authority on medical information, here you go. This chart was published in the NYT on June 14;

Screen Shot 2021-07-16 at 9.29.57 AM.png


You can read the article here;
Kids, Covid and Delta

As you can clearly see, children age 1-4 are 1,050% (not a typo) more likely to drown than die from COVID and children ages 5-14 are 950% (also not a typo) more likely to die in a car accident than from COVID.

Of course, these things were touched on when talking about the risk posed to children by COVID in the BMJ, but I realize it's more convincing when it comes from the NYT than from doctors and medical professionals. Hopefully you see now that the risk to children is infinitesimally small.
 
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whatbogsends

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Beware of skeptics. Snowballing a thread with articles from the "BMJ Journal" doesn't mean it's right. When these conjectures hit NYT or WAPO I may take notice.

While NYT and WAPO are better sources of information than most, limiting your acceptance of fact as to what the media presents leads to a predetermined conclusion. That's not "following the science.
 
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probinson

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Speaking of studies - here's an interesting one about the effects of mask wearing and social distancing : Decreased Influenza Activity During the COVID-19 Pandemic ...

Following widespread adoption of community mitigation measures to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, the percentage of U.S. respiratory specimens submitted for influenza testing that tested positive decreased from >20% to 2.3% and has remained at historically low interseasonal levels (0.2% versus 1–2%).

This is a particularly interesting hypothesis, since the CDC's own systematic review of 10 RCTs of masking to reduce influenza found that they were not significant in reducing the spread;

In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25)

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

It's important to note that the study you cited does not have the same quality evidence as the systematic review the CDC did. In the evidence pyramid, the study you cited sits at the very bottom, while the systematic review of the RCTs the CDC did sits very near the top in terms of quality of evidence;

Evidence_Pyramid.jpg


So the correct thing to do in an instance like this isn't to assume that one observational study trumps a systematic review of 75 years worth of RCTs on masking. The correct thing to do would be to do more RCTs and do a systematic review of those to see if the observational study has any merit, given that there is established, high-quality evidence that comes to a very different conclusion.

Hopefully all of the nitpicking around the edges of mask policy doesn't cause people to lose sight of how overwhelmingly effective they were.

Yeah, that's a talking point that I just don't buy. Why? Because all of the low-quality evidence that came from observational studies throughout the pandemic intentionally did not include time periods were cases were increasing. They studied time periods where cases were dropping and concluded that mask use must have been the reason. The thing is, if they were to do those same observational studies just a few months later, they would have gotten very different results. But I've yet to find a study on the efficacy of masks that took place during the fall/winter of 2020. Here's an illustration of a study the CDC did on masks;

CDCMaskStudy.jpg

Why would they stop the study just before the massive spikes in cases happened? And even so, why has there been no follow up study to include that time period?
 
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probinson

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You stated Faucci's advice is from 2 days ago, post delta variant that has been shown to afflict children at a higher frequency than the other variants.

Data? Source?

The WHO article you posted was from 8-21-2020, well before the delta variant.

Do you want them to take a stance and not change that stance regardless of new information or changing circumstances?

The CDC's guidance on masking children has not changed because of the delta variant. They have ALWAYS recommended that those over 2 should wear masks.

Here is the CDC's current guidance on masking children, which states;

Do NOT put on children younger than 2 years old
COVID-19 and Your Health
With my thanks to the Internet Wayback Machine, here is the CDC's guidance from January 1, 2021, long before there was a delta variant, which states;

Do NOT put on children younger than 2 years old
COVID-19 and Your Health

So the guidance from the CDC and the WHO on masking children has always been in conflict. You are either misinformed or being disingenuous when you suggest that this is a new stance in response to the delta variant.

Besides that, there is NO data or evidence that suggests masking children is at all beneficial;

Here is the real answer to the question of whether it's worth it to mask kids: No one has any clue. During the last year and half, the scientific community has failed to answer these questions. Failed entirely. We have no idea if masks work for 2-year-olds and above, 5 and above, 12 and above. No idea if they only work for some period of time. No idea if this is linked to community rates. No idea if the concerns over language loss offset the gains in reduced viral transmission, and if so, for what ages.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/93453
 
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ArmenianJohn

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How God uses ungodly nations/governments isn’t in view here.
It absolutely is. Romans 13 says that God uses earthly governments, none of which are godly, as a Minister to us for good. It's right in God's Word.

Yes, they did do godly things.
Example? Was Rome a godly government?

What is a "godly" government? One that does NOTHING evil? Or one that does less evil than godly things? I have never heard of a "godly" government and you have yet to give an example of one.

So they apostles obeyed God and defied tyrants.
Again, do you have an example? You make a lot of statements but never provide examples or Biblical support so I can't believe anything you're saying is anything other than your own opinion and not rooted in facts.

Here's an example of them NOT defying earthly government - when Paul was jailed and an earthquake freed everyone in the jail, Paul stayed out of obedience to God in subjecting to his earthly governmental authority, regardless of the fact that he was unjustly jailed.
 
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Hammster

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