Salvation vs : service.

[setst777]

If you'll not allow the system to put a :QUOTE: at the end of your next post, then it will show up as your post, instead of being hidden under mine.
This is a annoying system bug that the admin needs to resolve on this forum.

Interesting. I was not aware of this issue.

Thanks for the information.

 

[apollosdtr]

The divine revelation is not you trying to be like God, but rather it's God coming down here to bring you back to Himself, using The Cross.

Where many find error, isn't with the Cross, but its that their faith gets changed from "God saved me" into ...>"here is what im doing to stay saved".
See that LIST?

1, Commandments
2. Keeping the Law
3. Being Good, trying to live Holy
4. Loving everyone
5. Deeds, deeds, and more deeds. (see 1-4) for their Legalism.

The faith that we have when we understand that we are LOST< and Christ is the WAY out...the way back....The "GATE" to God's mercy................becomes smothered by "self righteousness".

This is the constant attempt of the flesh and the natural mind, to try to SEE salvation as "God started it, but now here is my part.....LOOK AT ME GO".

This is why we have to renew our minds.... As the devil and our flesh is a constant attempt to draw us away from Faith in Christ to Faith in Self.

Faith in self is Legalism
Faith in Christ ALONE is Salvation.

Two different gospels.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any [man] will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works. Revelation 3:8-10

 

[setst777]

Have you read this thread, yet? If so, does it work with what you believe?

There is no predestination unto salvation in the Bible

Predestination to Salvation is NOT in the Bible!

I read the link predestination link you provided in your message.

As for the youtube video link... Unfortunately my headphones stopped working today. I ordered some new ones from Amazon. I should receive them in a couple days.

As for the link to the post on "predestination," I agree with it as far as he goes, but I would add an important aspect to it.

God planned beforehand (predestined) those who love God to be conformed to the likeness of His Son. Yes, that would include the resurrection, but even now, those who love God are being conformed to the likeness of Lord Jesus as we daily follow Christ Jesus, walking by His Spirit.

Blessings

 

[setst777]

Two different gospels.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any [man] will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works. Revelation 3:8-10

You are correct in that, a true Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus is demonstrated by obedience to the one whom we have now committed our lives to.

Romans 1:5 (NIV) 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

We are not saved by works, but a true Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus means you are now His disciple, following Him.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

A faith demonstrated by hearing and following Lord Jesus is the only faith God accepts to receive eternal life.

John 10:27-28 (WEB)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

That is what Baptism represents - our dying to the old master of sin, and now living to follow Lord Jesus in holiness and righteousness (Romans 6). This new life in Christ Jesus is the only faith by which God grants eternal life.

Romans 6:21-22 (NIV)
21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:4-6 (WEB)
4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word.
This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

So we are saved by God through faith, and faith is not a work.

However, a true faith includes repentance – a denying of the old life of sin, and a commitment to be a disciple of Lord Jesus – to listen to and follow Him, observing all things He commands of us who believe. And this Gospel does not change through time; the same Gospel continues until the end of the age.

Lord Jesus taught us that, by our fruits (works) God judges us. For instance, the quote you provided makes that point, but there are many other by Lord Jesus, and Paul, James, John, and Peter. They all teach this.

Blessings

 

[apollosdtr]

Baloney and Horse feathers, fella.

God said that the "gates of hell will not prevail against His Church".
So, "man" is not the reason that the body of Christ will prevail.
God is the reason.
God is the reason that His word does not fail.

Because context matters:

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

onoma = a "name" (literally or figuratively) (authority, character)

 

[apollosdtr]

I read the link predestination link you provided in your message.

As for the youtube video link... Unfortunately my headphones stopped working today. I ordered some new ones from Amazon. I should receive them in a couple days.

As for the link to the post on "predestination," I agree with it as far as he goes, but I would add an important aspect to it.

God planned beforehand (predestined) those who love God to be conformed to the likeness of His Son. Yes, that would include the resurrection, but even now, those who love God are being conformed to the likeness of Lord Jesus as we daily follow Christ Jesus, walking by His Spirit.

Blessings

From the Kingdom perspective:
The Greek word for predestined doesn't occur. Instead, these three words apply:

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

kletos = invited, i.e. appointed, or (specially), a saint:--called.
eklektos = select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.
pistoo = to assure:--assure of.

So that, of the called, few are chosen, and of the chosen, some are faithful.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here is how we are to do it.

We are to become born again.
We are to get a NT, and a teacher. If there is a good bible believing church nearby, then that'll work.
If not, avoid it, and find yourself some believers who are Paul's disciples, and enjoy the fellowship.
Keep in mind that Titus and Timothy and many more, were disciples of Paul.
This does not elevate him to "savior status", it just shows that you have read a NT and are doing what you are told to do.
So , find them, and find a brand new world of real christianity, vs, man man, spiritually dumbed down, Let me build a big building to celebrate me.....this type of nonsense that "plays church".

So, after you are in the word for a while, you'l want to grow.
And to do that, you have to leave something that is preventing you from gaining more from God.

Its this...

Paul teaches..

""""
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto PERFECTION; not laying again the foundation of = repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God..”””


See that verse?
Let me paraphrase...."leaving the baby christian stage of "confessing sins". (repentance from dead works), and of trying to understand why you can't lose your salvation">..

GROW UP out of that...

Oh my goodness you have no idea what that verse means. Leave the baby stage of Christianity? Is that what you think it means? So you think he’s saying leave the repentance from dead works and faith towards God? So if we’re leaving our repentance (turning away from) from dead works then we’re supposed to move towards dead works? What he’s saying is let us move on from the elementary teachings of Christ into maturity and not lay AGAIN A FOUNDATION of repentance of dead works and faith in God. Faith in God and repentance from dead works are the foundational teachings of Christ. Do you really think the author is saying that we should do away with faith in Christ? No he’s saying that he wants to proceed to more mature teachings because they already know these elementary teachings of Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Baloney and Horse feathers, fella.

God said that the "gates of hell will not prevail against His Church".
So, "man" is not the reason that the body of Christ will prevail.
God is the reason.
God is the reason that His word does not fail.

According to you His word and His church failed for 1500 years. NOBODY TAUGHT YOUR THEOLOGY BEFORE THE 16TH CENTURY.

SEE THAT? NOBODY

 

[The Liturgist]

Thousands of denominations prove that Theology, and not the Bible, is the problem.

Not true; theology means knowledge of God and is impossible in the Christian faith without prayer. As one ancient divine put it “A theologian is one who prays, and he who prays is a theologian.” There are only three theologians in the Eastern Orthodox Church since it began, St. John the Beloved Disciple, St. Gregory Nazianzus, and St. Symeon the New Theologian.”

As for what you are using the word theology to refer to, which really should be called by its historical name the Study of Divinity, because the degree most ministers have is a Masters degree in Divinity (or MDiv), or alternately, theological scholarship, you yourself are engaging in it, for any study of sacred scripture, and its proper exegesis and interpretation, the history of heresies, as well as church history, Patristics, and so on, is theological scholarship, and you appear to have done some work on this.

There was a time when there were 2 Popes saying that the other one was the "anti-Christ".

So what? The Bishop of Rome never had any authority over what are now the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches, and instabilities in the Roman church after the Great Schism in 1054” where a hot-headed legate of the Roman Catholic Church sent to Constantinople to try to sell the Ecumenical Patriarch on the idea that the Orthodox needed to embrace the novel doctrine of Papal Supremacy, a doctrine condemned just 400 years previously by the saintly Pope Gregory Dialogos, as he is called in the Orthodox church.

There was a time, before the term "Catholic" became the title, that this same was titled the "cult of Mary" by the early church Fathers.

That’s categorically false. The Roman Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on the word Catholic; we all confess a belief in a universal church (which is what Catholic means) and the Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans and Assyrians are among the many churches which style themselves as Catholic. Where are you reading this nonsense?

There was a time when Valentinus, who is the "father of Gnosticism", almost became a Pope.

That’s false on so many levels I don’t even know where to start. Valentinus did not almost become a Pope; he was excommunicated and anathematized for heresy. And he was not the first Gnostic; the first Gnostic to attempt to get into Christianity was Simon Magus, but the religion was older, which is why the only surviving Gnostics, the Mandaeans of Iraq, worship John the Baptist and consider Jesus a “false Messiah.” Gnosticism was the result of a fusion of ideas including Zoroastrian dualism and Plato”s metaphysics and theology, which later evolved into the closely related Pagan religion of Neo-Platonism. And Valentinus, far from being the first Gnostic, based his faith on that of several earlier Gnostics, like Basilides, just as his contemporary, the Syrian Gnostic Tatian, based his heresy on that of Severian. Again, where are you reading this stuff?

There was a time when John Calvin had Michael Servetus burned alive, because this man was not fully convinced of the "deity of Christ".

That’s not true; the Geneva City Council ordered him burned at the stake. John Calvin did desire his execution, but was opposed to him being burned. The only early Protestant who actually burned people at the stake was Archbishop Cranmer of the Church of England, who burned some Roman Catholics, before Queen Mary, a Roman Catholic, burned him at the stake.

All of this was tragic and regrettable, but you won’t find comparable incidents in the Oriental Orthodox churches (Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopian, Indian, Armenian), or the Assyrian Church of the East, which was larger than the Roman Catholic church in terms of geography and possibly membership, stretching across Asia to Tibet and Mongolia, before the evil Muslim warlord Tamerlane killed most of them, the only survivors being in the Malabar Coast of India and Mesopotamia, where the church subsequently endured the Turkish genocide and more recently, ISIS.

Catholics believe that their denomination is the "one true church".

Roman Catholics. The Assyrian Church of the East, the full title of which is the Assyrian Catholic Church of the East, and other churches with the word Catholic in their name, do not agree.

Most Protestants believe that all Catholics are "Roman".

That is indicative of poor catechesis and rampant anti-Catholic propaganda which has an adverse effect on Lutherans, Anglicans, Moravians, Methodists, and even liturgical Presbyterians, Reformed churches and Congregationalists. I don’t know if I would agree with “most” however; the largest Protestant denominations are the Anglicans, followed by the Lutherans, and the Presbyterians, and in the US the two largest Protestant denominations are the SBC and the United Methodists. All of these churches subscribe to the Nicene and Apostles Creeds, which confess a belief in the Catholic Church (meaning the universal church), and teach their members the difference between Roman Catholicism and the Universal, or Catholic, Church.

Pentecostals, hate Baptists.

Baptist's think Charismatics are insane.

A lot of Christians, not just Baptists, have serious concerns about the Charismatic movement and the Pentecostal denominations. Also, the Oneness Pentecostals are a non-Christian cult, rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity in favor of Modalism, the ancient heresy that previously died out with the Sabellian sect (and not due to violence from Orthodox Christians).

This list is as long as i can stay awake for the next 2 days to write it.

You need to read more academically qualified works on Ecclesiastical History, as well as the writings of early church fathers like St. Irenaeus, Epiphanios of Salamis, Eusebius of Caesarea, St. Athanasius, and St. John Damascene, and perhaps read up on or peruse the actual surviving Gnostic texts (the Gospel of Truth survives in its entirety as well as several earlier and contemporary works from other sects, like the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Thomas, the Pistis Sophia, the Acts of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the Tripartite Tractate, and other bits of nonsense), simply because you don’t seem to understand the history of that heresy - saying Valentinus was the first Gnostic is a massive error, which can be demonstrated as false by the vast array of contemporary works by other Gnostics.

But that aside, every item in your list was either completely untrue, partially untrue or misleading, or irrelevant. I don’t blame you; you simply need to study church history in a more academic and balanced way, and get your materials from reputable set of scholars who represent different perspectives.

How to solve this?

Paul said. "Be a follower of Me, as i follow Christ" and then you get your church doctrine straight, and that is the actual issue between all Demoninations.

No, that’s not how to solve it, because St. Paul can be interpreted in a myriad of ways, and some epistles of his are considered by some to be misattributed, and there is also the burning question of whether or not he wrote Hebrews, and if he didn’t, then who did?

The reason why we have denominations not in communion with each other is because of a series of schisms in the 5th, 11th and 15th-16th century which, with all due respect to my Roman Catholic friends, were partially in the case of the 5th century schisms, and entirely in the case of the Great Schism in 1054 and the initial Protestant schisms, the result of severe problems in the Roman church which fortunately were largely corrected, in my opinion, by the Council of Trent, the internal “counter reformation” within the Roman church.

So, since the root cause was schisms between the churches, the solution to the problem of denominational confusion and sectarianism is ecumenical reconciliation. This has been happening on a large scale among the mainline Protestant churches, and is starting to happen elsewhere, for example, between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches.

Now I support, like my friend @MMXX, your Cross-centered theology, which is important and badly needed, but with regards to ecclesiastical history, you are misinformed, and the effect if we were to do what you suggested would basically be to create a new denomination united around a particular interpretation of the Pauline Gospels.

I also have to confess I did not understand your initial argument in favor of what is sometimes called Free Grace Theology, which I support because it is clearly the consensus patrum, until @MMXX explained to me that is what you were advocating, and I agree with that, but I would like to very respectfully suggest that you could refine your message to be less polemical and more focused, because I would have been cheering you on from the start. In particular, the phraseology you used regarding abiding by the commandments not being a requirement for salvation, which is classically anti-Pelagian, I read as you saying the commandments did not matter as ethical guideposts for Christians.

 

[The Liturgist]

See what you just said?

"what our Lord did FOR US, and why it matters"..

Let me paraphrase you..

"its what Jesus did for us, IS OUR SALVATION< and that is all that matters".

This is the "preaching of the Cross'"

= Pauline Theology.

Romans 3:21-28.

The "blood Atonement".

The "simplicity that is IN Christ".

Its all the same thing, as "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross". = Its THIS WORK, and not ours, that God accepts to accept us.
This is the "gift of Salvation", and the "Gift of Righteousness".

"Pauline Theology".

Had you explained it this way from the beginning, and also to a much lesser extent had you avoided the use of the phrase blood atonement, which I have serious issues with, because it is not heavily used in Christian soteriology but it does refer to one of the more sinister aspects of the Mormon cult, I would have agreed, except I don’t think this theology is specifically Pauline but is rather Christian in general, and the apostles and evangelists in the New Testament are a choir of voices in support of it, not to mention the teaching of Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior.

 

[setst777]

From the Kingdom perspective:
The Greek word for predestined doesn't occur. Instead, these three words apply:

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

kletos = invited, i.e. appointed, or (specially), a saint:--called.
eklektos = select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.
pistoo = to assure:--assure of.

So that, of the called, few are chosen, and of the chosen, some are faithful.

Yes, I understand what you mean. I speak of Paul's letters, where he does use the word "predestination" in Romans 8:29 and Romans 8:30. We disagree on Paul's letters, and I respect your view on that matter, but I have no issue with Paul's letters.

God planned beforehand (predestined) that, those who love God, would be conformed to the likeness of His Son. Yes, that would include the resurrection, but even now, those who love God are being conformed to the likeness of Lord Jesus as we daily follow Christ Jesus, walking by His Spirit.

Blessings

 

[Sidon]

Salvation has everything to do with who's who,

Salvation is God on the Cross.
If you want it, you go there.

 

[Sidon]

Two different gospels.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth

To be sanctified is for Jesus to cause it.
THe only way for this to happen is. : "Faith is counted as Righteousness".

See that..."as Righteousness" ?

 

[Sidon]

Two different gospels.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of My hand.

One Gospel, One Savior, One Cross., one "way" to Heaven.

This is "the preaching of the Cross'....and John 14:6

 

[Sidon]

Two different gospels.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any [man] will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross,

This is Jesus, the man, pre-Cross, talking to Jews.
This is Jesus the man, before the crucifixion, talking to the "House of Israel", under the old covenant.

After the Cross, you have a new Covenant, and you find Paul.
He does not teach works, or self effort as how to go to heaven.
Legalists, who reject the Cross, teach that message.

Paul teaches the Grace of God as the "gift of Salvation, and the Gift of Righteousness".
He calls this "my Gospel".... =Singular. = 1.

 

[Sidon]

Because context matters:

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock

You bet.

So, the context of this term "rock" is not that Peter is the Rock.
But the "rock" is the revelation that Peter spoke to God standing there in front of Him.
And the context of Peter's words are true..... as God explained....that on the revelation of Jesus as the Son of God, on THAT Revelation, the church would be built and Hell would not prevail against this TRUTH regarding WHO JESUS IS, that Peter just described by revelation.

Paul later preaches this Revelation as "the preaching of the Cross", and when a person gets this same revelation, they Trust in Christ for forgiveness of all sin, and God gives them the new Birth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is Jesus, the man, pre-Cross, talking to Jews.
This is Jesus the man, before the crucifixion, talking to the "House of Israel", under the old covenant.

After the Cross, you have a new Covenant, and you find Paul.
He does not teach works, or self effort as how to go to heaven.
Legalists, who reject the Cross, teach that message.

Paul teaches the Grace of God as the "gift of Salvation, and the Gift of Righteousness".
He calls this "my Gospel".... =Singular. = 1.

Paul teaches that we must refrain from sin in order to receive salvation.

 

[Sidon]

move on from the elementary teachings of Christ into maturity and not lay AGAIN A FOUNDATION of repentance of dead works and faith in God.

This is sinning and confessing.

This is the person that runs to John 1:9 to try to get saved again.
This is the person that runs to John 1:9 to get there fellowship restored to God.

See that person?
They are laying again the foundation of repenting and confessing their SIN, because their faith is brokent and they are trying to resolve by confessing.... what is already resolved by the Blood Atonement.

Believers are supposed to get past this....as all this is dead works.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You bet.

So, the context of this term "rock" is not that Peter is the Rock.
But the "rock" is the revelation that Peter spoke to God standing there in front of Him.
And the context of Peter's words are true..... as God explained....that on the revelation of Jesus as the Son of God, on THAT Revelation, the church would be built and Hell would not prevail against this TRUTH regarding WHO JESUS IS, that Peter just described by revelation.

Paul later preaches this Revelation as "the preaching of the Cross", and when a person gets this same revelation, they Trust in Christ for forgiveness of all sin, and God gives them the new Birth.

Jesus didn’t refer to the revelation Peter had received as the rock He just renamed Simon to Petros which literally means rock.

 

[Sidon]

Paul teaches that we must refrain from sin in order to receive salvation.

You are teaching some devout legalism there, bnr32fan.

Paul never teaches that....
He teaches the opposite..
He teaches that God "justifies the ungodly"

Jesus said """i came for the unrighteous."""
Never does He say...>"try to clean up and then i'll have you".

Paul teaches that we must Call on the Name of the Lord, to be saved, as a sinner.

Paul teaches that we are to repent from unbelief and turn to Christ by FAITH.