Equality Act & Religious Freedom

[Yttrium]

we had that last year in Bostock v. Clayton County the court rules that LGBT individuals are protected under title VII of the civil rights act

Oh. That's not quite what I was looking for (I was hoping for a more religion-oriented case), but it's close enough. Thanks. I somehow forgot about that.

 

[rjs330]

And people who have a religion-based aversion to selling things to minorities can choose a different line of work. I mean, it isn't as if there's a constitutional right to be a florist or something.

Except for the liberty and pursuit of happiness thing. There has ALWAYS been freedom to pursue your dreams in freedom.

You are comparing someone livelihood and ability to provide for oneself and ones family to the ability to purchase a certain kind of cake from a certain baker? When one can go down the block and buy the cake? Yeah that compairs totally to the blood, sweat, tears, hours and personal money sacrifice that goes into starting and maintaining a business.

What a preposterous point.

 

[rjs330]

its exactly the same thing.

sure black people couldn't go into the Broadway theater in Knoxville Tennessee but they could go just down the street to a theater that was happy to have them. Going down the street didn't hurt them at all but they weren't happy about it and demanded that the religious rights of whites and the theater owner must be subservient to their selfish wants and desires. They wanted white people punished and harmed.

That's precisely the issue. LGBT folks demand religious rights be subservient to there's and want people punished and harmed for it. Whereas they can go to many places to buy cakes, flowers or photography and not be hurt.

denying the truth of the matter just makes you look foolish.

I'm sorry but the blacks who suffered under civil right violation don't agree with you and has made your point absurd.

I mean being able to buy a particular cake from one specific baker is exactly the same thing and blacks not being allowed to go into a hospital or a theatre or a restaurant or many other places otherwise they faced , arrest, assault or maybe even hanging for it. Yeah that's exactly the same thing.

Your point is just foolish and the black community knows it. So do the rest of us.

 

[SilverBear]

I'm sorry but the blacks who suffered under civil right violation don't agree with you and has made your point absurd.

I mean being able to buy a particular cake from one specific baker is exactly the same thing and blacks not being allowed to go into a hospital or a theatre or a restaurant or many other places otherwise they faced , arrest, assault or maybe even hanging for it. Yeah that's exactly the same thing.

Your point is just foolish and the black community knows it. So do the rest of us.

“Not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights. I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about.” Mildred Loving

-go look up just who Mildred Loving is….I’ll wait



"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice, But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,"
Coretta Scott King

“Discrimination is discrimination, no matter who the victim is, and it is always wrong. There are no ‘special rights’ in America, despite the attempts by many to divide blacks and the gay community with the argument that the latter are seeking some imaginary ‘special rights’ at the expense of blacks.”
Julian Bond – Chair of the NAACP


So many parallels exist between what's happening in the gay-rights movement and what occurred in previous civil-rights movements. The same angry and emotional arguments being made against homosexuals who want the right to marry were made against blacks who wanted to attend the same schools, eat in the same restaurants, hold the same kinds of jobs and live in the same neighborhoods as whites, and against women who wanted to vote, serve on juries, attend medical school, and be hired for the same jobs as men: "It's not natural. It will upset the social order, and destroy our way of life. It's against religious teachings."
Sheryl McCarthey


"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,"
Coretta Scott King


“As civil rights leaders we cannot fight to gain rights for some and not for all.” Rev.Dr. Joseph Lowery

 

[SilverBear]

Except for the liberty and pursuit of happiness thing. There has ALWAYS been freedom to pursue your dreams in freedom.

You are comparing someone livelihood and ability to provide for oneself and ones family to the ability to purchase a certain kind of cake from a certain baker? When one can go down the block and buy the cake? Yeah that compairs totally to the blood, sweat, tears, hours and personal money sacrifice that goes into starting and maintaining a business.

What a preposterous point.

and black people could always just go down the block to some other business

 

[rjs330]

“Not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights. I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about.” Mildred Loving

-go look up just who Mildred Loving is….I’ll wait



"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice, But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,"
Coretta Scott King

“Discrimination is discrimination, no matter who the victim is, and it is always wrong. There are no ‘special rights’ in America, despite the attempts by many to divide blacks and the gay community with the argument that the latter are seeking some imaginary ‘special rights’ at the expense of blacks.”
Julian Bond – Chair of the NAACP


So many parallels exist between what's happening in the gay-rights movement and what occurred in previous civil-rights movements. The same angry and emotional arguments being made against homosexuals who want the right to marry were made against blacks who wanted to attend the same schools, eat in the same restaurants, hold the same kinds of jobs and live in the same neighborhoods as whites, and against women who wanted to vote, serve on juries, attend medical school, and be hired for the same jobs as men: "It's not natural. It will upset the social order, and destroy our way of life. It's against religious teachings."
Sheryl McCarthey


"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,"
Coretta Scott King


“As civil rights leaders we cannot fight to gain rights for some and not for all.” Rev.Dr. Joseph Lowery

None of that proves it's the same thing. It's not. A cake is not equivalent to what happened to the blacks. Not even close. And none of that you quoted says that. In fact Mcarthy makes the same mistake you do. Trying to crate an equivalent between the two. Utter nonsense.

MLK when approached by a gay man.

Question: My problem is different from the ones most people have. I am a boy, but I feel about boys the way I ought to feel about girls. I don’t want my parents to know about me. What can I do? Is there any place where I can go for help?

Answer: Your problem is not at all an uncommon one. However, it does require careful attention. The type of feeling that you have toward boys is probably not an innate tendency, but something that has been culturally acquired. Your reasons for adopting this habit have now been consciously suppressed or unconsciously repressed. Therefore, it is necessary to deal with this problem by getting back to some of the experiences and circumstances that led to the habit. In order to do this I would suggest that you see a good psychiatrist who can assist you in bringing to the forefront of conscience all of those experiences and circumstances that led to the habit. You are already on the right road toward a solution, since you honestly recognize the problem and have a desire to solve it.

He saw it as a problem. Not a civil.rights issue.

Why Gay Rights Are Not The New Civil Rights | Stephen H. Webb

Concern over the treatment of homosexuals is valid. Homosexuals should not be bullied, assaulted or killed for being gay.

They are not restricted from hospitals, restaurants, pools or drinking fountains. They can go to library's, grocery stores and schools along with everyone else. All this was what the black man suffered and much much more.

It's not the same thing. Never has been and never will be. To try and compair the two dies nothing but diminish what black people.suffered under slavery and Jim Crow.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

None of that proves it's the same thing. It's not. A cake is not equivalent to what happened to the blacks. Not even close. And none of that you quoted says that. In fact Mcarthy makes the same mistake you do. Trying to crate an equivalent between the two. Utter nonsense.

MLK when approached by a gay man.

Question: My problem is different from the ones most people have. I am a boy, but I feel about boys the way I ought to feel about girls. I don’t want my parents to know about me. What can I do? Is there any place where I can go for help?

Answer: Your problem is not at all an uncommon one. However, it does require careful attention. The type of feeling that you have toward boys is probably not an innate tendency, but something that has been culturally acquired. Your reasons for adopting this habit have now been consciously suppressed or unconsciously repressed. Therefore, it is necessary to deal with this problem by getting back to some of the experiences and circumstances that led to the habit. In order to do this I would suggest that you see a good psychiatrist who can assist you in bringing to the forefront of conscience all of those experiences and circumstances that led to the habit. You are already on the right road toward a solution, since you honestly recognize the problem and have a desire to solve it.

He saw it as a problem. Not a civil.rights issue.

Why Gay Rights Are Not The New Civil Rights | Stephen H. Webb

Concern over the treatment of homosexuals is valid. Homosexuals should not be bullied, assaulted or killed for being gay.

They are not restricted from hospitals, restaurants, pools or drinking fountains. They can go to library's, grocery stores and schools along with everyone else. All this was what the black man suffered and much much more.

It's not the same thing. Never has been and never will be. To try and compair the two dies nothing but diminish what black people.suffered under slavery and Jim Crow.

Why does the cake baker get to choose not to serve the gay couple but the restaurant owner, grocer, doctor, and pool owner can’t?

 

[rjs330]

Why does the cake baker get to choose not to serve the gay couple but the restaurant owner, grocer, doctor, and pool owner can’t?

He didn't refuse to serve them. He wouldn't use his artistic talents to create a single particular cake. They shouldn't have asked him to knowing his religious views. It was quite frankly a terrible thing to do. Go down the block to someone who would happily do it. Don't demand a person violate their deeply held personal religious beliefs. Don't demand their religious rights become subservient to your rights.

 

[KCfromNC]

Except for the liberty and pursuit of happiness thing. There has ALWAYS been freedom to pursue your dreams in freedom.

Maybe unless one's dreams include being able to shop in the sames stores as everyone else.

 

[KCfromNC]

Why does the cake baker get to choose not to serve the gay couple but the restaurant owner, grocer, doctor, and pool owner can’t?

Because that's a convenient rationalization in this specific case. Others will be provided when a doctor decides they can't treat a gay person, e.g. Pediatrician refuses to care for baby with two moms

 

[KCfromNC]

He didn't refuse to serve them. He wouldn't use his artistic talents to create a single particular cake. They shouldn't have asked him to knowing his religious views. It was quite frankly a terrible thing to do. Go down the block to someone who would happily do it.

Lots of excuses - and all of them sound pretty odious if the minority viewpoint being discriminated was Judaism rather than being the wrong gender.

Stop blaming the victims here.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

He didn't refuse to serve them. He wouldn't use his artistic talents to create a single particular cake. They shouldn't have asked him to knowing his religious views. It was quite frankly a terrible thing to do. Go down the block to someone who would happily do it. Don't demand a person violate their deeply held personal religious beliefs. Don't demand their religious rights become subservient to your rights.

Could he have made them a cake to celebrate their 10th wedding anniversary?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Maybe unless one's dreams include being able to shop in the sames stores as everyone else.

They should just be happy that they can get on the bus or drink from the garden hose. Who do these people think they are?

 

[rjs330]

Maybe unless one's dreams include being able to shop in the sames stores as everyone else.

Again, why should the religious rights of the baker be subservient to the rights of the other person. Bakers are already not required to create certain kinds of cakes. Why should this one be any different? It's not. You say the gay person has equal rights as the baker. Actually you day they have greater rights. But let's leave it at equal for arguments sake.

If two people come together with equal rights then something has to give. Common sense and common courtesy would be that one person should not FORCE the other to violate their individual rights. Just like a Satanist should not be able to force a Christian baker to make a Satan cake. Or a Christian to force a gay person to marry a straight person. Or an evangelical force a Catholic to go to an Evangelical church.

It's about force. Equal rights means the rights are equal and no one should FORCE someone to break their rights in order to satisfy themselves.

ESPECIALLY when there are a myriad of options available. It's totally uncivil to plow through someone to get to where you want to go, when you could just go around them.

 

[rjs330]

Lots of excuses - and all of them sound pretty odious if the minority viewpoint being discriminated was Judaism rather than being the wrong gender.

Stop blaming the victims here.

The victim is the baker in this case.

 

[rjs330]

Could he have made them a cake to celebrate their 10th wedding anniversary?

I don't know. I'm not his religious conscience.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

While we are at it, I will pass the word to all the Jewish doctors to stop treating Christians. Christians can go to another clinic a couple of blocks away. I would hate for the religious rights of Jews to get defiled by touching someone who may have eaten pork.

 

[rjs330]

Because that's a convenient rationalization in this specific case. Others will be provided when a doctor decides they can't treat a gay person, e.g. Pediatrician refuses to care for baby with two moms

In this case I would disagree with the doctors choice. The baby is the patient and the requested treatment had nothing to do with sexual orientation.

I'm a specifist. I don't believe the baker should have a sign that says "No gays allowed". But I do support not having to create an artistic cake to celebrate a sinful act.

In the doctors case, I would say the doctor should take care of the baby. But would be allowed not to perform specific acts that would violate her religious conscience in regards to celebrating or creating sinful.acts.

 

[rjs330]

While we are at it, I will pass the word to all the Jewish doctors to stop treating Christians. Christians can go to another clinic a couple of blocks away. I would hate for the religious rights of Jews to get defiled by touching someone who may have eaten pork.

I agree, I believe that doctor was wrong.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

I don't know. I'm not his religious conscience.

I’m going to guess he wouldn’t because I can’t believe he would be stupid enough to say he will have no part in celebrating a same sex wedding but has no problem being a part in celebrating a same sex wedding anniversary. To do so would mean that he thinks the wedding is the most important part of the marriage, and yes, society has segments that are that materialistic, I don’t think he is but the possibility exists.

My question still is unanswered on why the cake baker gets to discriminate against a same-sex couple but the restaurant owner and doctor don’t. If it was just a cake and this was the only segment of society would try to get away with this discrimination, I wouldn’t even bother having this fight. But I k ow this isn’t where this would end and it would quickly get into terrible territory.

Can an apartment building owner refuse to rent to a same-sex couple? Can a furniture salesmen refuse to sell furniture to a same-sex couple? Can a bank refuse to finance a home loan for a same-sex couple? How about the home sellers, can they refuse to sell? Could a home owners association put into their covenant that no same-sex couples are allowed? Can a car dealership refuse to buy or sell cars with a same-sex couple?Could a doctor refuse to treat them? Can a hospital refuse admittance? Can an attorney refuse to write up a will for a same-sex couple? Can a cemetery refuse to allow members of a same-sex couple be buried on the same burial plot?

In large cities there will be people willing to offer services if others are not. But in small towns, you may only have a couple or even one choice in these matters. Allowing people to straight up discriminate against same-sex couples can make towns “No-Go Zones” for the LGBTQ community.