Equality Act & Religious Freedom

[SilverBear]

Find the previous thread where I spent way too long doing that, if you are really interested. I did the work there, or you can do it here. I'm not doing it again, but was quite well-versed in the documents when the case came down( and qualified to interpret what I am reading).

so no reference to back up your claim
no quotes to back up your claim
not even a link to where you say you did did it before.

Thanks for showing that:

They passed up several other bakers to go to this guy, if you read the documentation, because he was known as a Christian who had scripture verses posted in his bakery. This was totally a set up.

Is a complete lie

 

[SilverBear]

Um, events are weddings. Prior booking required. Wedding cakes are not stock items; they are customized.

you just said "This was not a wedding."

 

[KCfromNC]

That's completely inaccurate. You entirely misunderstand his stance. There are messages he will not create on cakes...which included anti-gay cakes, or cakes that denigrate anyone in particular.

Speaking of inaccurate, it looks you're attempting to claim that the customers in question were trying to buy a cake which denigrate anyone. I mean, the other alternative is that this is just an attempted distraction from what actually happened.

In their case, it was a cake that had a different view of marriage. I believe the biblical view of marriage.

In what way? Pretty sure there wasn't even a design discussed for the cake before the customer was kicked out of this guy's shop.

But, again, it’s just cakes. I also don't create cakes that celebrate Halloween or cakes with alcohol in them or cakes that denigrate other people, including the people who identify as LGBT.

But he does make cakes for weddings, including for dog weddings. Just not for some customers.

 

[KCfromNC]

He does make custom wedding cakes. This was not a wedding. Not legal (at the time).

Kinda like dog "weddings", which I believe the guy had no problem baking for and selling to people. Despite the post-hoc rationalizations, this shows the legality of the not-wedding he isn't a part of doesn't seem to be of particular importance to the baker.

 

[KCfromNC]

You simply keep reiterating the same inaccuracies.

It seemed to be impactful enough to demand two back to back responses. Look at what people do, not what they say, I guess.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

so no reference to back up your claim
no quotes to back up your claim
not even a link to where you say you did did it before.

Thanks for showing that:

Is a complete lie

Asked and answered. Disregard if you like.

I have substantiated every single thing I have said up with factual information from the original case - some here, some elsewhere in other similar discussions. I've done it in detail before, and I'm not doing it again here.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

you just said "This was not a wedding."

Right. This particular event did not qualify as a wedding. It is not a wedding before God at all, and it was not a wedding per state law at the time.

He only did custom wedding cakes. He declined this event, which was not even a wedding per state law. It should and would never have been an issue, but for the immediate rush to file complaints by a couple who targeted him for his obvious Christian beliefs. He had scripture verses all over the store and was well known for his faith.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

In what way? Pretty sure there wasn't even a design discussed for the cake before the customer was kicked out of this guy's shop.

An interview transcript is here, if you are actually truly interested in what occurred with the customers who filed a complaint against Phillips.

A couple excerpts: Phillips: When my wife and I first talked about opening the cake shop, we sat down and we decided that there were cakes that we would create, cakes that we wouldn’t create and all the different aspects of that, but the primary thing that we considered was that everything we did, we wanted to honor Jesus Christ in our business.

Dr. Dobson: Your desire was to be an artist, but not with paints and canvases, but with pastries and cake mix.

....

Jack Phillips: 2012. Seven years ago. And two men were sitting in our wedding area and so when I went over to sit down to talk with them, we made introductions. One of them said he was David, the other one was Charlie. “I’m Jack. What can I do for you?” David said, “We’re here to look for wedding cakes.” Charlie said, “It’s for our wedding.” And so right away I realized that this is not a cake that I can create, but how can I tell these two men that I can’t make their cake, but I’d be glad to serve them anything else? And so, I told them, “I’ll make you birthday cakes, cookies, brownies, other custom cakes, but I can’t create a cake for a same sex wedding.” At which time they both jumped up, they flipped me off, they swore at me and stormed out of my shop.

Dr. Dobson: So they stormed out the door and did what?

Jack Phillips: Well, 20 minutes later the phone rang. And so, I answered the phone and somebody was on the other end and they were condemning me for turning away the gay couple and I said, “I would never turn away a gay couple. I would gladly serve anybody anything that I would create for anybody else, but I can’t create this cake.” I don’t remember the exact content of the call, but it was not a friendly call. And then another one right after that. We were only open for another half hour that day and at six o’clock we closed. In between five and six o’clock, I’d received half a dozen calls like that. So, right away, the two men started telling their friends, however they did it, to call us up and harass us.

There is a lot more.

Jack Phillips: We’ve had people ask us to create cakes that insult people who are in the LGBT community, and we won’t create those either. It’s the message of the cake that we won’t create. It’s never the person that’s asking for the cake.

...

Jack Phillips: One of the things that’s affected us was the phone calls, the hate mail, the emails that we got, the threats I had. One day I was at the shop and I’d get a phone call from somebody who tells me what street he’s on, he’s coming to the shop and he’s going to blow my head off.


Lovely people.

 

[SilverBear]

Asked and answered. Disregard if you like.

no reference
no quote
no link


I can't disregard something that isn't there

 

[SilverBear]

Right. This particular event did not qualify as a wedding. It is not a wedding before God at all, and it was not a wedding per state law at the time.

He only did custom wedding cakes. He declined this event, which was not even a wedding per state law.

so the only reason he refused service was because of the minority status of the customer.

It should and would never have been an issue, but for the immediate rush to file complaints by a couple who targeted him for his obvious Christian beliefs.

repeating a falsehood will not make it any more true

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

so the only reason he refused service was because of the minority status of the customer.

repeating a falsehood will not make it any more true

No, but because there were certain messages he would not share. Including making cakes for people who wished to disparage LGBT people. As already stated. It's like you are not even reading what is said to you.

 

[Yttrium]

so the only reason he refused service was because of the minority status of the customer.

repeating a falsehood will not make it any more true

The customer wasn't refused service. The bakery was willing to sell the couple cakes. Just not a customized homosexual wedding cake. Although I feel for the homosexual couple, I think that since the bakery has the right to refuse to make customized cakes for a wide variety of topics, they were entitled to refuse to make this particular custom cake.

Sadly, we didn't get a proper resolution to the case. The Supreme Court threw it out on the grounds that the Colorado civil rights commission screwed up the case by being openly hostile to the baker's religious views.

 

[Yttrium]

Speaking of the infamous bakery case, if the Equality Act passes, any bakery that makes customized wedding cakes should be required to make customized homosexual wedding cakes on request. Not doing so would be unequal treatment.

But I have a hard time imagining the act getting through the Senate unless the Democrats throw out the filibuster.

 

[SilverBear]

The customer wasn't refused service.

Yes they were. According to Phillips own testimony they went to the area where custom orders are taken for every other customer. The couple said they wanted a wedding cake. Phillips asked who the cake was for and when the couple said it was for them he turned them away. the whole exchange took less than 30 seconds. There was not talk about design or if the cake would be delivered or picked up he just turned the couple away.

He refused to provide an advertised service he happily provides to to any other customer bases solely on who the customer's were.

The bakery was willing to sell the couple cakes. Just not a customized homosexual wedding cake.

and just what is a homosexual wedding cake?


is this a homosexual wedding cake?

how do you tell?

Although I feel for the homosexual couple, I think that since the bakery has the right to refuse to make customized cakes for a wide variety of topics, they were entitled to refuse to make this particular custom cake.

so in your opinion it would be fine if he refused to make cakes for black couples or interracial couples?

 

[Yttrium]

Yes they were. According to Phillips own testimony they went to the area where custom orders are taken for every other customer. The couple said they wanted a wedding cake. Phillips asked who the cake was for and when the couple said it was for them he turned them away. the whole exchange took less than 30 seconds. There was not talk about design or if the cake would be delivered or picked up he just turned the couple away.

He refused to provide an advertised service he happily provides to to any other customer bases solely on who the customer's were.

The bakery sells cakes and other goodies. That's their service. They didn't turn the customers away from buying any of their existing products. They didn't turn them away from making special orders in general. They only refused to make a specific kind of special order cake for them.

so in your opinion it would be fine if he refused to make cakes for black couples or interracial couples?

No, that would be a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It would be unequal treatment.

The new Equality Act is specifically designed to give the same protection to LGBTQ.

 

[SilverBear]

The bakery sells cakes and other goodies. That's their service.

they also make wedding cakes. Another of their services

They didn't turn the customers away from buying any of their existing products. They didn't turn them away from making special orders in general. They only refused to make a specific kind of special order cake for them.

Phillips refused to make a cake for a couple based on the fact they were members of a minority

No, that would be a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It would be unequal treatment.

so you are saying refusing to sell a product based on minority status is wrong

The new Equality Act is specifically designed to give the same protection to LGBTQ.

Colorado has already passed such protections.


It says something bad about our country that minorities have to fight for the same legal protections that everyone else has

 

[Yttrium]

Phillips refused to make a cake for a couple based on the fact they were members of a minority

No, they were quite willing to make a cake for the couple. Just not a wedding cake.

so you are saying refusing to sell a product based on minority status is wrong

Depends on your morals. Different people have different moral standards. My morals say it's wrong. However, I certainly don't consider my morals to be absolute standards.

Colorado has already passed such protections.

Yes, that's why there was a case in the first place. And it was appealed to the Supreme Court.

It says something bad about our country that minorities have to fight for the same legal protections that everyone else has

It does.

 

[SilverBear]

No, they were quite willing to make a cake for the couple. Just not a wedding cake.

It's kind of like saying there was nothing wrong with segregation because blacks could still sit at the back of the bus

Depends on your morals. Different people have different moral standards. My morals say it's wrong. However, I certainly don't consider my morals to be absolute standards.

Exactly when is discrimination against a minority moral?

Yes, that's why there was a case in the first place. And it was appealed to the Supreme Court.



It does.

But you re OK with it. nice

 

[Yttrium]

Exactly when is discrimination against a minority moral?

I suggest you take up the topic of Christian morality concerning homosexuality in the Ethics & Morality section. I'm sure you'd find plenty of lively debate there.

 

[SilverBear]

I suggest you take up the topic of Christian morality concerning homosexuality in the Ethics & Morality section. I'm sure you'd find plenty of lively debate there.

so are you saying discrimination is moral when directed at specific minorities but wrong when directed at others?