Equality Act & Religious Freedom

[Aldebaran]

It is if we are supposed to accept accusations that the customer is targeting that person because of that person's religious beliefs.

We're being asked to accept accusations that the customer is being targeted for being gay. Apply the same standard.

 

[Pommer]

We're being asked to accept accusations that the customer is being targeted for being gay. Apply the same standard.

What? The Baker wasn’t making ANY wedding cakes that year?

 

[KCfromNC]

We're being asked to accept accusations that the customer is being targeted for being gay. Apply the same standard.

Yes, the baker found out the gender and orientation of the customer made them a wrong type of minority and told them to leave rather than treating them like any other customer. From this, we can conclude he targets certain groups of minority customers for different treatment.

Compare and contrast with the fact the baker didn't advertise he made a habit of discriminating against the wrong types of minorities. From this we conclude there was no way for the customer to know about his history of discrimination, and therefore weren't targeting him specifically.

Same standard in both cases - using actual facts about the case to come to a reasonable conclusion about the behavior of people based on what we all agree they knew at the time.

 

[KCfromNC]

What? The Baker wasn’t making ANY wedding cakes that year?

Except maybe for "illegal" dog weddings.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Yes they were. According to Phillips own testimony they went to the area where custom orders are taken for every other customer. The couple said they wanted a wedding cake. Phillips asked who the cake was for and when the couple said it was for them he turned them away. the whole exchange took less than 30 seconds. There was not talk about design or if the cake would be delivered or picked up he just turned the couple away.

He refused to provide an advertised service he happily provides to to any other customer bases solely on who the customer's were.



and just what is a homosexual wedding cake?


is this a homosexual wedding cake?

how do you tell?




so in your opinion it would be fine if he refused to make cakes for black couples or interracial couples?

He said he didn't do same sex wedding events - which were NOT a legal thing at the time. They could have asked for a Halloween cake and would have received the same response. It's the event, he chose not to do, not the customers to whom he chose not to sell.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Yep, exactly my point. Without even knowing what would be on the cake, he knew he couldn't make it because the customers were the wrong type of minority. It has nothing to do with what was to be put on the cake, but about who the people buying it were.

They asked for a wedding cake - not just a cake - that memorializes an impossibility,according to his faith..

Same result had they asked for a Halloween cake or a divorce party cake. Nothing to do with the customers; everything to do with the fact that he did not do the events requested.

 

[SilverBear]

We're being asked to accept accusations that the customer is being targeted for being gay. Apply the same standard.

no one claimed that couple was being targeted, they were being discriminated against.

 

[SilverBear]

He said he didn't do same sex wedding events - which were NOT a legal thing at the time.

That isn't an excuse for discrimination.

During the trial Phillips admitted that he would also refuse to provide a cake to a same-sex couple for a commitment ceremony or a civil union, neither of which is forbidden by Colorado law. Because Respondents’ objection goes beyond just the act of “marriage,” and extends to any union of a same-sex couple, it is apparent that Phillips real objection is to the fact the couple were members of a minority

 

[Albion]

Phillips admitted that he would also refuse to provide a cake to a same-sex couple for a commitment ceremony or a civil union

It is literally the case that the baker would refuse to provide a nice, layered, white cake to a would-be purchaser because he was of the opinion that that they might use it in connection with a same-sex ceremony? I haven't followed the news concerning this bakery especially well, so I'm just asking the question.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

no one claimed that couple was being targeted, they were being discriminated against.

Same concept. Targeted for disparate treatment = discrimination.

But it isn't true. He didn't do certain events. It didn't matter who wanted them.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

That isn't an excuse for discrimination.

During the trial Phillips admitted that he would also refuse to provide a cake to a same-sex couple for a commitment ceremony or a civil union, neither of which is forbidden by Colorado law. Because Respondents’ objection goes beyond just the act of “marriage,” and extends to any union of a same-sex couple, it is apparent that Phillips real objection is to the fact the couple were members of a minority

He didn't do those events. He is not required to do those events, no matter who the customers are. Based on his faith, he didn't do certain events like same sex weddings/(or anything of the kind), Halloween events, or divorce cakes. Perhaps a couple others.

He retains a First Amendment right to do what aligns with his faith, despite what the customer wants.

It doesn't matter how many times you argue otherwise.

 

[KCfromNC]

They asked for a wedding cake - not just a cake - that memorializes an impossibility,according to his faith..

Seems like if his were a shop where customers showed up and asked the owner questions about the true nature of the universe and his infallible opinion on how to correctly memorialize possible events, this response would be relevant.

But no, it was just a bakery and they wanted to buy a cake just like all the other cakes he sold to non-gay couples. And for people holding (impossible or not) dog weddings.

 

[KCfromNC]

It is literally the case that the baker would refuse to provide a nice, layered, white cake to a would-be purchaser because he was of the opinion that that they might use it in connection with a same-sex ceremony?

We'll never know - he kicked the customers out of the shop when he found out they were gay before even getting to the details of the cake.

 

[KCfromNC]

But it isn't true. He didn't do certain events.

Does he do any events? Pretty sure he just baked cakes. I mean, sure, if people asked him to plan an event he'd rightly point out that there are event planners who do that. But I don't think that's really relevant, since the customers he discriminated against just wanted to buy a cake.

 

[SilverBear]

He didn't do those events. He is not required to do those events, no matter who the customers are.

his own testimony in court showed that it was not the event but the customers.

He retains a First Amendment right to do what aligns with his faith, despite what the customer wants.

baking a cake is not actually conduct that is part of his religion...or any religion

It doesn't matter how many times you argue otherwise.

It's discrimination and it is against the law. Phillips actions denied the rights of the couple to be free from discrimination in the marketplace. baking a cake is not part of his or any religion. His right to worship as he sees fit is not encroached upon or denied in any way laws preventing the discriminating against any minority does not violates the free exercise of religion. Phillips refusal to serve a same-sex couple due to religious objection to same-sex weddings is no different from refusing to serve a biracial couple because of religious objection to interracial marriage.[/quote][/quote]

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Seems like if his were a shop where customers showed up and asked the owner questions about the true nature of the universe and his infallible opinion on how to correctly memorialize possible events, this response would be relevant.

But no, it was just a bakery and they wanted to buy a cake just like all the other cakes he sold to non-gay couples. And for people holding (impossible or not) dog weddings.

No, it's not just a cake. When it's a custom cake, it is a message the owner can decide to make, or not.

He doesn't do Halloween Cakes. He doesn't do same sex events. He doesn't do divorce events. He doesn't create custom cakes with a working p*nis, as one nut job customer requested. He doesn't do ANTI-gay cakes either. He doesn't do KKK cakes. He doesn't have to make any custom requested.

These are violative of his faith and conscience and he doesn't have to present any message requested. I'm not sure how this is unclear to anyone.

He does sell cakes.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Does he do any events? Pretty sure he just baked cakes. I mean, sure, if people asked him to plan an event he'd rightly point out that there are event planners who do that. But I don't think that's really relevant, since the customers he discriminated against just wanted to buy a cake.

He makes custom cakes for events, and has to set aside extra time to decorate it, and time to deliver it in the time frame requested. Just a cake - sure, drop by and pick one up, any cake they have on the shelf.

 

[KCfromNC]

No, it's not just a cake. When it's a custom cake, it is a message the owner can decide to make, or not.

That's nice, but this baker kicked out the gay customer before even knowing what message, if any, was on the cake.

He doesn't do Halloween Cakes. He doesn't do same sex events. He doesn't do divorce events. He doesn't create custom cakes with a working p*nis, as one nut job customer requested. He doesn't do ANTI-gay cakes either. He doesn't do KKK cakes. He doesn't have to make any custom requested.

The customer in question asked for none of these, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

The relevant question - does he make wedding cakes?

 

[KCfromNC]

He makes custom cakes for events, and has to set aside extra time to decorate it, and time to deliver it in the time frame requested. Just a cake - sure, drop by and pick one up, any cake they have on the shelf.

I continue to read assertions like this which run counter to the testimony of everyone involved in the case.

 

[FireDragon76]

If discrimination against same-sex couples is banned, and religious freedom can't be used as a defense against this mandate, I suppose that would become required. Can't say for sure, but that's what it looks like

This isn't true. Ministers of religion have always been free to evaluate candidates for marriage according to the dictates of their religion, and nobody is seriously challenging that.

Would it mandate that a pastor of a church would have to perform a wedding for a same sex couple.

No.