Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

[BABerean2]

Some Christians meet every day in one form or another in fellowship and have a worship service.

That is entirely different from what the OP is talking about. Read the OP (maybe even the first 3 posts) -- and let me know if some part of it brings up a question.

Manmade Confessions, which think Adam could have committed adultery and honored his mother, vs. the Word of God...

I will take what God said through the Apostle Paul in the passage below.


Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; (YLT)


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[Bob S]

Since that is what D.L. Moody was doing? since that is ?? what is the logic you are using?
Have you even read the "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19???

I am not Baptist and why would you use anything from Babylon to bolster your claims?

 

[BobRyan]

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath that you see in most of the Sabbath keeping groups - having the start of the Sabbath for all mankind in Eden.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Then why aren't you keeping all of the laws of the old covenant

Since that is what D.L. Moody was doing? since that is ?? what is the logic you are using?
Have you even read the "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19???

I am not Baptist and why would you use anything from Babylon to bolster your claims?

So then you are choosing not to respond at all to the subject/context of this entire thread much less page 1 or the OP?

If so - why post here?

 

[BobRyan]

Manmade Confessions, which think Adam could have committed adultery and honored his mother, vs. the Word of God...

I will take what God said through the Apostle Paul in the passage below.


Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; (YLT)


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you are free to take the position that you "differ with everybody" of course.

But this thread is about 'the basics' - the really easy part of the discussion so obvious that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to them.

 

[BABerean2]

Have you even read the "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19???

Yes. It claims the ten commandments were given to Adam in the garden, with no explanation of how Adam could commit adultery or honor his mother.

If you have to use a man-made confession to make your doctrine work, you are on very thin ice that is already in the process of cracking.

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[BABerean2]

you are free to take the position that you "differ with everybody" of course.

But this thread is about 'the basics' - the really easy part of the discussion so obvious that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to them.

What is really easy is believing what Moses said in verse 3 below.

I agree with Moses, so it is OK to differ with those who do not agree with Moses.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount saying,
Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.


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[AdamjEdgar]

I find some very interesting comments here about whether or not the Sabbath is a man made interpretation or not and whether or not we should be still keeping it.

Could i ask that the following be answered...
Revelation 14

11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

So in the context of the passage...and the mark of the beast, who are the saints?

Are not the Commandments OF God the 10 commandments?

When I google search "commandments of God" guess what it returns...the 10 COMMANDMENTS

Am i misunderstanding the google search or is it that both the Google search algorythm and obviously most often related meaning on the internet people relate with that search phrase, all consider me to be right in this...ie Its the 10 Commandments?

So if in the very first book of the Bible, we are told to Keep the Sabbath, in the middle of the Bible our Lord and Saviour Himself kept the Sabbath, and the very last book in the Bible we are told that "the saints" are those who keep the commandments, might someone explain how it is possible that Google and the 3 illustrations that form the theme and context for the Sabbath in the Bible i have just outlined, are all wrong in this?

What i think is wrong here, the catholic church changed the sabbath, and all christian denominations who follow along with them on this are looking for lame reasoning in order to attempt to rationalise what is a man made doctrine. The Sabbath is not the man made doctrine here, Sunday Worship is!

 

[BobRyan]

What is really easy is believing what Moses said in verse 3 below.

I agree with Moses, so it is OK to differ with those who do not agree with Moses.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

The "easy part" that Christians on "BOTH sides" agree with is that
1. Ex 20:7 "do not take God's name in vain" is one of the TEN
2. That it was a SIN to take God's name in vain in Eden and all through history NO Matter that the TEN were not on stone until after Ex 20. And it is the unit of TEN that is pulled into the reader's view by Paul in Eph 6:1-2 saying "Honor your father and mother" is "the FIRST COMMANDMENT WITH a promise"
3. That it is STILL a sin to "take God's name in vain" even though that is the only commandment not quoted from in the NT.
4. That Jeremiah and is readers would have included all TEN in the Law of God written on the heart in Jer 31:31-34 under the NEW Covenant (verbatim unchanged in Heb 8:6-12)
5. That to ignore one is to ignore them all James 2
6. That Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to these details in the Bible about "the TEN".
7. That EVEN though God gave Israel the TEN Commandments and it was a SIN for them to take God's name in vain - it did not mean that everyone else could take God's name in vain - and that would be just fine.

These points are so obvious - they are irrefutable.

 

[atpollard]

Are not the Commandments OF God the 10 commandments?

Why not the two commandments of Jesus Christ upon which the Law and Prophets rests?
Those who Love God and Love neighbor gave rejected the way of the beast and faithfully followed the way of the King ... in Spirit and Truth as all true worshipers follow (and have always followed) I AM.

 

[atpollard]

7. That EVEN though God gave Israel the TEN Commandments and it was a SIN for them to take God's name in vain - it did mean that everyone else could take God's name in vain - and that would be just fine.

These points are so obvious - they are irrefutable.

Where does God condemn a gentile for taking his name in vain?

• In Romans 1, God states that is wrath is revealed against the unbelieving Gentiles for a variety of specific charges, but taking the name of the Lord in vain (or the other commandments from Sinai) are not among God’s charges.

 

[BABerean2]

These points are so obvious - they are irrefutable.

Does Adventism only survive by ignoring Deuteronomy 5:3, and the rest of the chapter?

Does Adventism have to ignore John 5:1-17?

Does Adventism also have to ignore Galatians 4:24-31?

Does Adventism have to ignore the New Covenant making the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:6-13?

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[BABerean2]

Yep it is the SHADOW laws that are fulfilled in Christ.

What does the word "all" mean in the words of Christ found below?

Did Christ say He came to fulfill only part of the law?


Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


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[BobRyan]

Where does God condemn a gentile for taking his name in vain?

• In Romans 1, God states that is wrath is revealed against the unbelieving Gentiles for a variety of specific charges, but taking the name of the Lord in vain (or the other commandments from Sinai) are not among God’s charges.

The commandment is not quoted there. There is no quote of it in the NT or before Ex 20 in the Bible - but that does not mean it is ok to do it..

Paul condemns breaking the commandments of God in 1 Cor 7:19 but that is not a quote of Ex 20:7

 

[BobRyan]

Does Adventism only survive by ignoring Deuteronomy 5:3, and the rest of the chapter?

Is it your claim that all these Sunday groups are Adventism? you keep circling back to this idea.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath that you see in most of the Sabbath keeping groups - having the start of the Sabbath for all mankind in Eden.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Example of Bible Details leading these scholars to agree on the TEN as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant - to this very day.

Does Adventism have to ignore John 5:1-17?

Hint: already addressed here #2 and of course in Matt 19 and Mark 7:6-13 Christ also affirms "the TEN"

Does Adventism also have to ignore Galatians 4:24-31?

Hint: already addressed here #2

Does Adventism have to ignore the New Covenant

Hint - the New Covenant is in the OT Jer 31:31-34 and is unchanged in the NT Heb 8:6-12 as it proclaims that the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart.

So then no wonder we have -- this point already addressed here #2

 

[BobRyan]

Why not the two commandments of Jesus Christ upon which the Law and Prophets rests?

Matt 22 where Christ affirms Moses by quoting him

"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

Christ quotes directly from the Law of Moses to uphold all of scripture "the Law AND the Prophets"

The result of that in early first century church is as expected here - #2

What is your point?

 

[BABerean2]

Hint - the New Covenant is in the OT Jer 31:31-34 and is unchanged in the NT Heb 8:6-12 as it proclaims that the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart.

"Sunday groups" and their man-made confessions are not the standard which can erase Deuteronomy 5:3.
They use the term "the moral law" which is not found in the Bible.

Anyone who claims the ten commandments were given to Adam, without explaining how he could commit adultery and how he could honor his mother, can not be a source of truth.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

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1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


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[LoveGodsWord]

What does the word "all" mean in the words of Christ found below?

Did Christ say He came to fulfill only part of the law?

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

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There is nowhere in Matthew 5:17-19 that says Jesus fulfilled the law so that we do not have to. That teachings is pretty much against the whole bible.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What does the word "all" mean in the words of Christ found below?

Did Christ say He came to fulfill only part of the law?

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

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Matthew 5:17-19 [17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Note: Jesus is saying he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets he did not come to destroy them, that is to make then no longer a requirement for those who believe and follow Gods' Word he came to fulfill them that is to do them that is to obey them that is and to be revealed through them. He obeyed both the 10 commandments by being obedient to them and the "shadow laws" for remission of sins pointed to him and are fulfilled in him.

[18], For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Note: Heaven and earth have not passed away and nothing from Gods' law has passed away either. The "shadow laws" are fulfilled and continued in Christ to who then point to and continued in under the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6 and Gods 10 commandments are still the standard for good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

[19], Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

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There is nowhere in Matthew 5:17-19 that says Jesus fulfilled the law so that we do not have to. That teachings is pretty much against the whole bible. We should be careful to believe and follow God's Word not teach against them.

Something to pray about.

 

[BABerean2]

There is nowhere in Matthew 5:17-19 that says Jesus fulfilled the law so that we do not have to.

If you could fulfill the law, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?

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[LoveGodsWord]

If you could fulfill the law, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?

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Because we have all sinned and broken God's law (Romans 3:9-20) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). If God's law was abolished Jesus would not have to die for the sins of the world (John 1:29; 36: 3:16). It is because Gods' law is not abolished (Matthew 5:17-19) that God sent his only begotten son to die so that we can be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:19).