Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
As you have noted - a great many Christian denominations affirm all Ten of the Ten commandments as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant. Taking that POV for a moment - then it means one cannot use Gal 3 to obliterate the command to "not take God's name in vain" or the Sabbath commandment.

someone said:
Indeed, but one can use it to question SDA interpretations of those commandments.

If you look at the details in the sources I give regarding the topic of the TEN Commandments

1. they all affirm the SDA interpretation as to what the Bible said about the TEN... every one of them. Agree on the TEN as "God gave them" and their application to all mankind from Eden to the Cross -- full agreement.

2.There is also full agreement that the Ten continue to be written on heart and mind under the New Covenant and continue to apply to all mankind

3. Where the differences come in is when those groups claim that church tradition edited the Sabbath commandment to re-point it to week-day-1 -- SDAs and many others - say that tradition was in error whereas the groups I listed , choose tradition at that dividing point.​

So here are the three major concepts as numbered above. SDAs (and all other Sabbath keeping groups) are in line with the groups I listed on points 1 and 2 above.

But if you go to the Sabbath-and-the-Law forum you find that 99.999% of all opposition to SDAs (and all other Sabbath keeping groups) regarding the TEN commandments -- is being limited to just those first two points above - EVEN though this is precisely where the Sabbath-opposing arguments are most conflicted with their own pro-Sunday scholarship.

Please read post #11 for context -- #11

Very "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader in my POV.

(See next post for list of sources)

 

[BobRyan]

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath in Eden that you see in most of the Sabbath keeping groups - having the start of the Sabbath for all mankind in Eden.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Example of Bible Details leading these scholars to agree on the TEN as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant - to this very day.

The "easy part" that Christians on "BOTH sides" agree with is that
1. Ex 20:7 "do not take God's name in vain" is one of the TEN
2. That it was a SIN to take God's name in vain in Eden and all through history NO Matter that the TEN were not on stone until after Ex 20. And it is the unit of TEN that is pulled into the reader's view by Paul in Eph 6:1-2 saying "Honor your father and mother" is "the FIRST COMMANDMENT WITH a promise"
3. That it is STILL a sin to "take God's name in vain" even though that is the only commandment not quoted from in the NT.
4. That Jeremiah and is readers would have included all TEN in the Law of God written on the heart in Jer 31:31-34 under the NEW Covenant (verbatim unchanged in Heb 8:6-12)
5. That to ignore one is to ignore them all James 2
6. That Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to these details in the Bible about "the TEN".
7. That EVEN though God gave Israel the TEN Commandments and it was a SIN for them to take God's name in vain - it did not mean that everyone else could take God's name in vain - and that would be just fine.

These points are so obvious - they are irrefutable.

As could be predicted very many of the Sabbath-opposing posts on this thread have tried to oppose Bible doctrine affirmed by Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the debate (AS IF) that opposition singled out Adventists in some way.

One cannot blame those texts on Sabbath-keepers (if not "on Adventists" entirely ) as IF the much older Bible scholarship position that oppose the Sabbath POV of Adventists - were merely following Adventist teaching.

You can't blame Adventists for what even their opponents teach BEFORE there ever was an Adventist.

Seems like an obvious detail - but notice how many posts get "stuck" on that very point posting "you Adventists say" and then follows a Bible text or POV that even the anti-Sabbath Bible scholars hold to be true! That opposition logic would only work "if Adventists wrote the bible" - which we did not. (for anyone still in doubt on that point)

 

[BobRyan]

========Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19

The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances.



================== Westminster Confession of Faith
Section 19

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

 

[BobRyan]

I could provide quotes of some of the other sources here if someone is interested

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

======== - Baptist Confession of Faith:

Section 22.

Point 7
7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week,

and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.


22. Worship and the Sabbath Day

8. The Sabbath is kept holy to the Lord by those who, after the necessary preparation of their hearts and prior arranging of their common affairs, observe all day a holy rest from their own works, words and thoughts about their worldly employment and recreations, and give themselves over to the public and private acts of worship for the whole time, and to carrying out duties of necessity and mercy."


================== Westminster Confession of Faith

Section 21

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath

----------------
--- end
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Note: Interesting that they can bring themselves to say "first day of the week" but not "seventh day " - even though "seventh day" is the term God uses in Genesis 2:1-3 and Ex 20:10. Instead of "seventh day" they use a term not in the Bible at all "last day of the week". hmmm maybe something was bothering them.

 

[Tolworth John]

What difference does it make if I worship God on Sunday or if you worship God on Saturday.

Is the mark of being a Christian the day one worships on or what one believes about Jesus?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

What difference does it make if I worship God on Sunday or if you worship God on Saturday.

God gave Eve a command and she disobeyed it, that made a big difference.
God called that difference sin.

God gave us a command about the seventh day Sabbath

Exodus 20:7-11 King James Version (KJV)
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Matthew 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Yes the day does make a difference

 

[BobRyan]

What difference does it make if I worship God on Sunday or if you worship God on Saturday.

Is the mark of being a Christian the day one worships on or what one believes about Jesus?

All Christians worship God every day - daily devotions, daily prayer etc (or at least they should).

But we DO not have every day set apart for just worship and no secular work or activity. For that sort of thing we read "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord" Ex 20:10 - and honor it. Those are two different things in the Bible.

As noted in the references - even the non-Sabbath keeping groups agree in the statements they make on that point.

hint: There were many trees in the garden of Eden -- God gave some specific instructions. The details mattered.

In Gal 4 Paul is very specific that one cannot declare a pagan day to be a holy day - so we all try to make sure we are not doing that... which means the Bible does not approve setting every single day of the year aside as a set-apart holy day for no secular activity etc. In fact Paul says "if someone will not work - neither let him eat".

 

[Tolworth John]

But we DO not have every day set apart for just worship and no secular work or activity. For that sort of thing we read "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord" Ex 20:10 - and honor it. Those are two different things in the Bible.

You are basically saying that the mark of whether one is a Christian is there keeping of a Saturday safety.
You are saying that a ritual observance of a law is more important than what one believes about Jesus or how one seeks to follow him.
.
Paul said it well in Galatian 3:1 you are foolish, bewitched from following Jesus, yes I've paraphrased it.

Salvation is found Only in Jesus, and not in keeping any law.

 

[BobRyan]

You are basically saying that the mark of whether one is a Christian is there keeping of a Saturday safety. .

I don't think any such thing and I don't think there is a quote of my saying any such thing.

=============== here is an interesting statement by D.L. Moody


DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17

.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.


"THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

"I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

"It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

"I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

 

[BobRyan]

You are saying that a ritual observance of a law is more important than what one believes about Jesus

I don't think I have said any such thing

 

[BobRyan]

Salvation is found Only in Jesus, and not in keeping any law.

That is also true of the Command of God "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
And it is also true of the Command of God "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2, Ex 20:12

But has never been justification for taking God's name in vain or dishonoring parents.

Context... you have to love it.

========= I think I may know what the problem is here - lets take time to read one of the Ten commandments to avoid confusion ===========

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord (YHWH) your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So hmmm.. what does that mean?

Lev 23:3
3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is the Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is the Sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.

Is 58:13
“If, because of the Sabbath, you restrain your foot
From doing as you wish on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a pleasure, and the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,

Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth ... "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down"

Is 56:6-7
8 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind"

Gen 2:1-3 And so the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their heavenly lights. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

 

[Tolworth John]

I don't think I have said any such thing

So it does not matter whether one meets to worship on Sunday then.

 

[BobRyan]

So it does not matter whether one meets to worship on Sunday then.

Let's say someone schedules a prayer meeting at church for all 7 days during the week - not a problem because that has nothing at all to do with the 4th commandment. That commandment does not say "be careful not to assemble to pray on some other day during the week)

 

[Tolworth John]

Let's say someone schedules a prayer meeting at church for all 7 days during the week - not a problem because that has nothing at all to do with the 4th commandment. That commandment does not say "be careful not to assemble to pray on some other day during the week)

Follow the plot please.

Does it matter whether I worship God on Sunday?

To make it clearer is the seven day Adventist church following a man made rule that is irrelevant to Christianity?

 

[BobRyan]

Follow the plot please.

Does it matter whether I worship God on Sunday?

Follow the answer please - I have already posted that Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week and also if some church wanted to gather for prayer meeting all 7 days of the week - fine.

In Adventist churches it is customary to have Bible study / worship /evangelism meetings that meet for 5 days a week in the church for 4 or 5 weeks in a row.

Why are you asking the same question over and over?

(I have updated #11 In an effort to clear up what might be the source of confusion)

To make it clearer is the seven day Adventist church following a man made rule that is irrelevant to Christianity?

No - we are following the Bible and the Word of God matters. And we do not believe that man can legitimately "edit" the Word of God to make it fit tradition (as noted in the first four posts for those who carefully read them)

I assume that all Christians would agree "the Word of God matters" - is this the part you wanted to question?

 

[Danthemailman]

Follow the plot please.

Does it matter whether I worship God on Sunday?

To make it clearer is the seven day Adventist church following a man made rule that is irrelevant to Christianity?

The SDA church teaches that the 7th day sabbath is the seal of God and that those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday will receive the mark of the beast.

Sabbath as Seal of God
Mark of the Beast

For an Adventist to give up the 7th day sabbath, is essentially giving up salvation unless they should return to the 7th day sabbath. Yes, it's that important to them! Obey the ten commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) - "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works" - is the SDA gospel in a nutshell.

 

[Bob S]

Follow the answer please - I have already posted that Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week and also if some church wanted to gather for prayer meeting all 7 days of the week - fine.

In Adventist churches it is customary to have Bible study / worship /evangelism meetings that meet for 5 days a week in the church for 4 or 5 weeks in a row.

Why are you asking the same question over and over?

(I have updated #11 In an effort to clear up what might be the source of confusion)



No - we are following the Bible and the Word of God matters. And we do not believe that man can legitimately "edit" the Word of God to make it fit tradition (as noted in the first four posts for those who carefully read them)

I assume that all Christians would agree "the Word of God matters" - is this the part you wanted to question?

Then why aren't you keeping all of the laws of the old covenant that pertain to you? Why just the ten and the dietary and your modified false tithing system? Jesus came to fulfill the law. He brought it t an end at Calvary where He ushered in the new and better covenant not of rituals like Sabbath, but laws of how we treat our fellow man.

 

[BobRyan]

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath that you see in most of the Sabbath keeping groups - having the start of the Sabbath for all mankind in Eden.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Then why aren't you keeping all of the laws of the old covenant

Since that is what D.L. Moody was doing? since that is ?? what is the logic you are using?
Have you even read the "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19???

 

[BobRyan]

Follow the plot please.

Does it matter whether I worship God on Sunday?

All Christians worship on every day. Are you following the thread?

 

[BobRyan]

So it does not matter whether one meets to worship on Sunday then.

Some Christians meet every day in one form or another in fellowship and have a worship service.

That is entirely different from what the OP is talking about. Read the OP (maybe even the first 3 posts) -- and let me know if some part of it brings up a question.