Question for Seventh Day Adventist members

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SabbathBlessings

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Thanks, but that wasn't the point of my post. My purpose in observing this thread is to observe the answers given to the OP and determine the degree of infallibility that SDA members ascribe to Ellen White's writings. From what I've read here I think she is considered infallible. If she isn't, what has she been wrong about?

We get our scripture from the Bible. Even Ellen White tells us everything, including her writings must be tested by scriptures. That is what matters. God bless
 
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ChetSinger

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We get our scripture from the Bible. Even Ellen White tells us everything, including her writings must be tested by scriptures. That is what matters. God bless
Some of the things she's written can't be tested by scriptures because they're extra-Biblical, such as Adam's height. Would I be correct in believing that you're taught her writings are never wrong?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Some of the things she's written can't be tested by scriptures because they're extra-Biblical, such as Adam's height. Would I be correct in believing that you're taught her writings are never wrong?
I’m more concerned with Biblical scripture and getting that right above all else. My church focuses on the Bible. Ellen White is not a substitute for the Bible and her focus was also on the Word of God. Her book Steps to Christ has brought many to find Jesus. If you’re asking me if Ellen White has ever made a mistake, I am sure she has made plenty, she was a human. Were the visions she received from God, I think so. Her writings started at 17 years old and were well advanced for her age. Many non-SDA churches quote her and what she accomplished was amazing. She has a great love for our God, but in our church, like I said, we focus on scriptures and making sure we are following God’s Word. Hopefully we will find out in Heaven soon, if she is right about Adams height.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I am well aware of Saint Anna; she is the patron saint of my beloved mother. She was also a genuine prophet, and her prophecy predated the Pauline injunction against women teaching or exercising authority over men and the requirement that women keep silent in the church.Indeed, everything in the Gospels and the initial chapters of Acts predates 1 Corinthians, written in approximately the year 55 AD, and 1 Timothy, which likely dates, along with the other Pastoral Epistles, to St. Paul’s imprisonment in Rome about a decade later, shortly after the events in Acts 28. Therefore, the examples you cite are irrelevant, as St Paul had not even had the Christophany on the Road to Damascus which lead to his conversion from an evil persecutor to a holy apostle.
Sorry I disagree with your teachings. God does not change his mind. Prophets (both men and woman) being messengers of God have messages for all of God's people as shown through the scriptures already. Paul's later message was a general injunction in regards to woman teaching in the Church not women who are prophets required to give a message from God to Gods' people which is the work of a prophet. Your teaching disagrees with scripture here.
And from a Reformed, regulatory perspective, it is reasonable to assume that the Pauline injunctions were only universally adopted in their entirety when 1 Timothy’s place in the canon was cemented by Saint Athanasius in the 360s. However, prior to that time, we can expect those churches founded by St Paul and his disciples, which specifically include most of those in Greece and Asia Minor, and also Rome, which he cofounded with Saint Peter, and also in particular the churches founded by St Timothy and bishops whose ordination he participated in* did implement the Pauline injunctions in full. And we see no real exceptions to this. Even Saint Nino, who evangelized Georgia, did so without violating this rule, since she was an Armenian princess who persuaded the King of Georgia to look into Christianity, without teaching men, exercising authority over men or talking in the church (the Armenians do allow female choristers, who tend to have particularly beautiful voices).
I am sorry I have no interest in this section of your post as it is not biblical and does not apply to prophets.
LoveGodsWord wrote: In Revelation, specifically in the letter to Thyatira (Rev. 2:18–29), Jesus criticizes a woman who calls herself a woman prophet—the same word Luke uses for Anna—for “teaching and deceiving my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols” (v. 20). The woman is clearly a leader in the church of Thyatira. But is she a genuine prophet? The prophet Jeremiah makes personal holiness and purity a litmus test for genuine prophecy (Jer. 23:9–40). Jesus, similarly, advises his disciples to expose false prophets by drawing attention to their behavior (Matt. 7:15–23). Unfortunately, the character and behavior of the woman from Thyatira did not meet the litmus test of a genuine prophet. Yet what is often missed is that Jesus does not attack the woman for being a leader, but for being an immoral one.
Your response...
This is simply false - what our Lord actually says begins with a rebuke for her teaching. The Pauline injunctions require women to refrain from teaching or holding positions of authority over men, and to be silent in church. A more clear translation may be helpful, as the NKJV is neither as beautiful as the original, nor particularly stylistically competent; the worst of both worlds. Thus I shall quote from the NIV the words of our Lord:

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Also, please refrain from copy-pasting your arguments wholesale from apologetics websites. Every reply I write, I write by hand; I only copy and paste quotations individually selected from the Bible and other texts I deem appropriate. I would appreciate the same consideration.
Sorry but what is posted to you is not false at all it is Gods' Word and God's Word is true according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4. If you read what was posted it is not saying that these woman in Revelation 2:18-29 are true prophets. It was stating that they were false prophets. The example was quoted to show that the woman is clearly a leader in the church of Thyatira because she was having influence in leading people with her teachings away from God and His Word. What was posted never once said that this women was a genuine prophet. Perhaps you had a misunderstanding of what was written to you and why.
Actually, neither male nor female prophets have personal authority; the authority of a prophet comes from the Holy Spirit speaking through them. And St. Paul makes no exception in 1 Timothy for prophetesses. So to say that prophetesses have any authority other than that of the words spoken by the Holy Spirit is unbiblical and contradicts the instructions of St. Paul.
A prophets authority comes directly from God who has assigned His prophets to speak His Word. There is no contradiction of the scriptures here perhaps it is in your understanding of them. If God gives a prophet a message and tells them to speak His Word to the people and the Church leadership tells the prophet not to speak God's Word who should the prophet obey God or man? (Acts of the Apostles 5:29; see also Isaiah and Jeremiah). According to the scriptures nothing has changed today when Jesus says you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!
A woman with the sweeping doctrinal authority of Ellen White is unprecedented; even from beyond the grave, she holds more influence over the Adventist church than anyone alive. And her eschatological prophecy concerning the Investigative Judgement is entirely novel and, contrary to SDA apologetics, is not foretold in scripture.
Once again I ask you why would a prophets coming need to be foretold in the bible? Were all prophets foretold in the bible? If so how could the first prophet foretell himself. This part of your argument here is not biblical and does not make any sense. Does Gods' Word from the prophets of the bible hold more influence to Gods' people that believe and follow Gods' Word who Jesus say are his sheep in John 10:26-27? According to the scriptures God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow because they are not His sheep.
What is more, if all the doctrinal writings of EGW, such as The Great Controversy, are to be considered prophecy, then she is not an authentic prophetess, because the litmus test for prophets is complete accuracy, and as I have discussed elsewhere, the historical narrative in The Great Controversy does not correspond with the actual history of the church. And there are other problems with her writings as well, which are too numerous to mention.
This is your opinion and of course you are free to believe as you wish. There are many versions of history written in bias that we can also choose to believe or not believe. All your really saying here is I am right and you are wrong. Sorry but I do not believe you. Where have I or any SDA ever said to you to believe the writings of EGW over the bible? If no one has ever said these things to you why pretend that we take the writings of EGW over the bible when all she ever does is point people to the bible as the Word of God? Yet you want to talk EGW and not the bible? This is telling to me.
I can only liken Ellen G. White to other church leaders, such as the Popes (who I chose for a comparison because they are the only other major church leaders who have made a claim as to infallibility), because based on a detailed analysis of her work, I cannot accept Ellen G. White as meeting the criteria of an authentic prophet. If her history of the church was more accurate, and if specific events she predicted as happening in the very near future had happened, and if her doctrines did not contradict scripture, and if she did not exercise a leadership and teaching role in the church contrary to the directions of St. Paul, this would be a very different conversation.
If you choose to believe that Gods' Word is fallible that is up to you. What you choose to believe or not believe is up to you. I do not judge you. For me all the EGW writings have done is to point me to the Word of God and it is in the Word of God I stay and abide. Yet many do not want to discuss the scriptures seeking instead to discuss anything outside of the scriptures. We should not be afraid to come to the light of Gods' Word as it is written; this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved, but he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God (John 3:19-21). If what we believe is true we walk in the light as he is in the light. If what we believe is not true we walk in darkness and do not know where we are going (John 12:25) Those who follow Gods' Word do not walk in darkness but the light the lights the whole world but it is written many love darkness rather than light because they deeds are evil so they will not come to the light (the Word).

For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure but many do not hear when they close their eyes to see and their ears to hear. These of course are God's Word not my words. Do you know what they mean?

Hope this is helpful
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I've said nothing about Isaiah. Is your second question regarding Ellen White? If so you've reinforced my observations.
I was applying the same question of the OP to the reasoning of your first post to prophets. Did you not pick that up?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Perhaps I didn't. Were you comparing Ellen White with Isaiah?
Just a general statement to prophets. If you look at the OP's question you can apply it to any one who is a prophet in the bible. I just used Isaiah as an example. God has always sent prophets to His Church and the Church has always sort to kill and reject the most of them. Do we believe some of God's Word or all of God's Word? That is the question.
 
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ChetSinger

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Just a general statement to prophets. If you look at the OP's question you can apply it to any one who is a prophet in the bible. I just used Isaiah as an example. God has always sent prophets to His Church and the Church has always sort to kill and reject the most of them. Do we believe some of God's Word or all of God's Word? That is the question.
My question to you is whether you believe Ellen White's writings are infallible. That was the original subject of this thread and it's what I'm interested in learning.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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My question to you is whether you believe Ellen White's writings are infallible. That was the original subject of this thread and it's what I'm interested in learning.
Do I believe any human being is infallible? No. Do I believe EGW had a message for Gods' end day people? Yes absolutely. Of all her writings I have read for me was the same message over and over. Prepare to meet thy God; Jesus is coming, pointing all to the bible over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. She pointed me to the bible and told me to stay there and that is my position to this day because it is only in God's Word that we see and know Jesus.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is your opinion and of course you are free to believe as you wish.

It’s not an opinion - EGW’s historical narrative clashed with facts about church history known during her lifetime, and facts about church history discovered more recently. And of her prophecies of future events, that were supposed to be immediately impending, they haven’t happened, and what Hegel calls the “arrow of History” is pointed the other way in many cases, with unpopular “blue laws” restricting retail hours or the sale of alcoholic beverages on Sunday, increasingly unpopular, with several states and the District of Columbia repealing them in the past decade.

Thus, since her prophecy contains provable errors, especially with regards to the events and chronology of Christian history (and the way the early church actually worked before the Roman Catholic Church developed the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and excommunicated the Orthodox, which is to say, in a conciliar manner that makes her descriptions of 6th century Popes entirely anachronistic), and the criterion for the authenticity of a prophet is complete accuracy of all prophecies, we can say that Ellen G White is not a genuine prophet inspired by the Holy Spirit.

And even if she were, Saint Paul makes no distinction between those women inspired by prophecy and those with other charisms (both of which were very common in the Apostolic Church and are very rare in our contemporary secular culture, which glamorizes evil and mocks piety (with regards to the evil nature of abortion and homosexuality, I assume on that point Adventists have no disagreement with me).
 
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The Liturgist

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I was applying the same question of the OP to the reasoning of your first post to prophets. Did you not pick that up?

If you are asking the reason why I posted this thread, i assumed Adventists related to Ellen White in the same way Lutherans relate to Martin Luther, Presbyterians to John Calvin and John Knox, Anglicans to Thomas Cranmer, and Methodists to John Wesley, and that of her writings, there would be some that members would find more edifying, and others that they did not like as much, for whatever reason.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It’s not an opinion - EGW’s historical narrative clashed with facts about church history known during her lifetime, and facts about church history discovered more recently. And of her prophecies of future events, that were supposed to be immediately impending, they haven’t happened, and what Hegel calls the “arrow of History” is pointed the other way in many cases, with unpopular “blue laws” restricting retail hours or the sale of alcoholic beverages on Sunday, increasingly unpopular, with several states and the District of Columbia repealing them in the past decade
Sorry I disagree. This is indeed your opinion. There is many versions of historical narratives as there are interpretations of the scriptures. What hasn't happened? Why would you also think if something has not happened yet it is not going to happen or it is not true? Is the bible not true because Jesus has not returned yet?
Thus, since her prophecy contains provable errors, especially with regards to the events and chronology of Christian history (and the way the early church actually worked before the Roman Catholic Church developed the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and excommunicated the Orthodox, which is to say, in a conciliar manner that makes her descriptions of 6th century Popes entirely anachronistic), and the criterion for the authenticity of a prophet is complete accuracy of all prophecies, we can say that Ellen G White is not a genuine prophet inspired by the Holy Spirit.
There is no "thus" as shown above you have started with a faulty premise. What provable errors in regards to the history of the christian Church? You have posted nothing that support your view here accept to provide your opinion that is not scripture.
And even if she were, Saint Paul makes no distinction between those women inspired by prophecy and those with other charisms (both of which were very common in the Apostolic Church and are very rare in our contemporary secular culture, which glamorizes evil and mocks piety (with regards to the evil nature of abortion and homosexuality, I assume on that point Adventists have no disagreement with me).
Sorry but I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures here. God does not teach that because a woman is a prophet she is not to give his Word to his people. That teaching in my view is not biblical and is in contradiction to what a prophet (נביא or προφήτης messenger from God) is required to do. We should be careful not to reject Gods' Word and His prophets by doing so we reject God and His Word (Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Romans 3:4).

Hope this is helpful.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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If you are asking the reason why I posted this thread, i assumed Adventists related to Ellen White in the same way Lutherans relate to Martin Luther, Presbyterians to John Calvin and John Knox, Anglicans to Thomas Cranmer, and Methodists to John Wesley, and that of her writings, there would be some that members would find more edifying, and others that they did not like as much, for whatever reason.
My answer was provided earlier here
 
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ChetSinger

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Do I believe any human being is infallible? No. Do I believe EGW had a message for Gods' end day people? Yes absolutely. Of all her writings I have read for me was the same message over and over. Prepare to meet thy God; Jesus is coming, pointing all to the bible over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. She pointed me to the bible and told me to stay there and that he my position to this day because it is only in God's Word that we see and know Jesus.

Hope this is helpful.
Thank you for your reply.
 
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The Liturgist

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pointing all to the bible over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God

Or rather, her interpretations of the commandments of God. And why does she outrank Paul? The Apostle Paul clearly said women cannot teach or exercise authority. 1 Timothy is inspired scripture. Why do Adventists ignore it while prioritizing the fourth commandment, which might not even be binding on non-Jews (the Jews regard the Noachide Laws as the divine legislation for gentiles, and the Torah as the equivalent for Jewish people, a position reflected in the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, which is more or less the same as the Noachide Laws the Talmudic sages extracted from Genesis.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Or rather, her interpretations of the commandments of God. And why does she outrank Paul? The Apostle Paul clearly said women cannot teach or exercise authority. 1 Timothy is inspired scripture. Why do Adventists ignore it while prioritizing the fourth commandment, which might not even be binding on non-Jews (the Jews regard the Noachide Laws as the divine legislation for gentiles, and the Torah as the equivalent for Jewish people, a position reflected in the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, which is more or less the same as the Noachide Laws the Talmudic sages extracted from Genesis.
Let's talk scripture please. The bible does not teach women prophets cannot speak Gods' Word. Therefore I do not agree in regards to your interpretation of 1 Timothy. According to the new covenant scriptures a Jew is not one outwardly but neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God *Romans 2:29-29. God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are not those who are born of the flesh but all those who through faith are born of the Spirit *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL through believing and following Gods' Word then you have no part in Gods new covenant promise which is to all those who believe *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Acts 15 was never over the question "are the 10 commandments a requirement for christian living?" The question being considered here was "Is circumcision a requirement for salvation"? *Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 and it was this question Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to consider. Your interpretation of Acts of the Apostles 15 has Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says sometime latter after the Jerusalem meting to the Corinthian believers in 1 Corinthians 7:19 [19], Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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The Liturgist

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Let's talk scripture please. The bible does not teach women prophets cannot speak Gods' Word.

I am talking scripture. Did you not see the references? At any rate, in response to this:
  • The Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1)
  • In 1 Corinthians and 1 Peter, Paul does not distinguish between women with the gift of prophecy and without the gift of prophecy.
  • It does not matter, because Ellen White made errors in her works, which means she is an interesting theologian but not an inspired prophet.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I am talking scripture. Did you not see the references? At any rate, in response to this:
  • The Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1)
  • In 1 Corinthians and 1 Peter, Paul does not distinguish between women with the gift of prophecy and without the gift of prophecy.
  • It does not matter, because Ellen White made errors in her works, which means she is an interesting theologian but not an inspired prophet.

I am sorry I do not agree with your teachings and claims here and neither do I believe they are biblical, for the reasons already outlined from the scriptures in the previous posts already we will of course agree to disagree.
 
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pasifika

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We get our scripture from the Bible. Even Ellen White tells us everything, including her writings must be tested by scriptures. That is what matters. God bless
Hello, sometimes someone have to understand scriptures in order to give credits to someone who teach or preach the Word...

I don't know who has the spiritual knowledge or authority to say E G White has the truth to teach the Word...Maybe only her congregation..

"God has given us the Spirit of Truth to teach us into All Truth..."

Also, there false teachers and false prophets has gone out to the world, teaching things they ought not qualify to teach and as a result they deceive many...

...."A tiny yeast leavens the whole batch"...
 
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I am sorry I do not agree with your teachings and claims here and neither do I believe they are biblical, for the reasons already outlined from the scriptures in the previous posts already we will of course agree to disagree.
Hello LGW, so you are teacher of the Word? You think you alone is Right?
 
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