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My question in post #124.Answer what exactly?
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My question in post #124.Answer what exactly?
I did not quote Gibbons here. That is why I said perhaps you may need to read and follow the conversation earlier. We were discussing him not quoting him.My question in post #124.
I am still trying to understand what the point of raising Gibbon's work was meant to achieve. Is he a source for SDA belief?I did not quote Gibbons here. That is why I said perhaps you may need to read and follow the conversation earlier. We were discussing him not quoting him.
Every view has bias and critics especially if it does not agree with teachings that are viewed as truthful. That does not mean it is right or wrong.
And, yet the propaganda of your sources are in fact wrong. That is the whole point of Woodrow's' book. The well known "trail of blood" errors has been refuted.
Errors in "The Trail of Blood'?
Anabaptist Heresies Exposed: The Trail Of Blood: A book review
Not really. I have never made any quotes to the book you are quoting from and so have no idea what your talking about.
Really? I have never met one. They all say the same thing no matter what version is served up.No, I happen to be an objective historical scholar.
Yes friend, really. I am enjoying our friendly discussion.Really? I have never met one. They all say the same thing no matter what version is served up.
I have come in on this topic very late. Skipped a lot of fluff in the middle and now find myself reading an article about an extremely radical and small group who were within the Anabaptist movement that were not at all representative of mainstream in that movement...how did it get to this point exactly?
Here is another question for Adventist members, who keep asking us to show them where Sunday worship happens in the New Testament.
I would like an Adventist to show me where it says that Ellen G White can teach and have authority over men. Saint Paul was very clear that the leadership of the Church was to be Patriarchal. That is why we study the early church fathers and call this field Patristics. Furthermore, Saint Paul directed that women were to keep silent in the church. Many liturgical traditions have historically abided by this in the fullest and most literal way possible, through the exclusive use of male choristers and boys’ choirs.
It is clear from a history of the Adventist church that Ellen G White wielded authority over and taught men, and continues to do so through her voluminous writings, and had the loudest voice of anyone in terms of influence and the weight of her opinions during the formation of the modern SDA church, and has an even louder voice now, in the absence of a living successor, an authority and voice Saint Paul the Apostle clearly said she should not have.
Why would a prophets coming need to be foretold in the bible? That claim is not biblical. Your claims here in regards of women having authority in the Church does not apply to prophets who are messengers from God (men or women). Of course women who are not prophets do not have authority in the mainstream SDA Church.And why, for that matter, does she not have successors? Why should a young woman, whose coming was not prophesied in the Bible, appear, acquire and wield enormous authority, authority that St. Paul says she should not have had, an authority to the point where her writings are regarded as infallible, and then pass away, without leaving a successor, and without any of the related events described as happening at the end of time occurring?
I notice you qualify your post here about Roman Catholic doctrines of infallibility "ALL the Popes writings". This is not a comparison of fallible men with those who have been given a message from God to give to the people (prophets). You speak of what you do not know. Do you believe God has given spiritual gifts to the church? What we teach is only in support of Sola Scriptura. Where have I or any SDA here at CF ever made a thread based on what EGW says and not scripture? People who ask these questions are normally those who do not want to discuss the scriptures in my experience.It should be noted that no Roman Catholic Pope has all of their writings regarded as infallible, even given the seriously erroneous doctrine of Papal Infallibility. Indeed, since the adoption of that doctrine at the First Vatican Council, it has been used twice, by Pius IX and Pius XII, to promulgate as infallible dogma two already popular theological opinions. In contrast, all of White’s dogmatic statements seem to be regarded as infallible; Adventists claim to be sola scriptura, but when you have only one authoritative guide to scripture, and that guide is regarded as The Spirit of Prophecy whose interpretations are free from error, that is very different from the freedom of interpretation argued for by Martin Luther and the other Reformers.
There is a difference between having women leaders in the Church teaching the flock and having women who are prophets in the Church teaching God's Word. This was from an interesting article I read somewhere that might be helpful.
Women Prophets in the Old Testament
The label “prophetess” or “woman prophet” (něbī’āh) is attributed to five women in the Old Testament: Miriam (Exod. 15:20), Deborah (Judg. 4:4), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chron. 34:22), Noadiah (Neh. 6:14), and “the prophetess” (Isa. 8:3). Its significance is clear. Miriam claims the Lord “has spoken” through her (Num. 12:2). Deborah says to Barak: “Look, the Lord, the God of Israel, has commanded” (Judg. 4:6). Huldah similarly uses the prophetic introductory formula: “Thus says the Lord God of Israel…” (2 Kings 22:15). Scripture, then, describes a woman prophet as someone through whom God speaks to his people. In this regard, a “prophetess” is no different than her male counterpart, the “prophet” (nābī’). For this reason, I prefer the translation “woman prophet.”
Women Prophets in the New Testament
Luke presents Anna as a “woman prophet” (prophētis), which is the same Greek word the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses to translate the Hebrew něbī’āh (Luke 2:36). Like the prophet Simeon who is paired with her (2:25–27), Anna is led by the Holy Spirit to speak about Jesus “to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem” (2:38). The masculine gender of the signifiers describing her intended audience suggests Anna prophesies to both men and women. Elsewhere, Luke uses the feminine signifier to define an audience of women only (15:9).
In Revelation, specifically in the letter to Thyatira (Rev. 2:18–29), Jesus criticizes a woman who calls herself a woman prophet—the same word Luke uses for Anna—for “teaching and deceiving my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols” (v. 20). The woman is clearly a leader in the church of Thyatira. But is she a genuine prophet? The prophet Jeremiah makes personal holiness and purity a litmus test for genuine prophecy (Jer. 23:9–40). Jesus, similarly, advises his disciples to expose false prophets by drawing attention to their behavior (Matt. 7:15–23). Unfortunately, the character and behavior of the woman from Thyatira did not meet the litmus test of a genuine prophet. Yet what is often missed is that Jesus does not attack the woman for being a leader, but for being an immoral one. (from CBE International).
So to claim that women prophets do not have authority in the Church is not biblical. Women prophets are not women in general.
Why would a prophets coming need to be foretold in the bible? That claim is not biblical. Your claims here in regards of women having authority in the Church does not apply to prophets who are messengers from God (men or women). Of course women who are not prophets do not have authority in the mainstream SDA Church.
I notice you qualify your post here about Roman Catholic doctrines of infallibility "ALL the Popes writings". This is not a comparison of fallible men with those who have been given a message from God to give to the people (prophets). You speak of what you do not know.
Do you believe God has given spiritual gifts to the church?
What we teach is only in support of Sola Scriptura. Where have I or any SDA here at CF ever made a thread based on what EGW says and not scripture?
People who ask these questions are normally those who do not want to discuss the scriptures in my experience.
Hope this is helpful.
Indeed, everything in the Gospels and the initial chapters of Acts predates 1 Corinthians, written in approximately the year 55 AD
I stumbled upon this sub-forum recently and immediately noticed the number of SDA-related threads on it. Perusing them has been interesting because I'd never known much about the SDA church except that they worshipped on Saturday and that Loma Linda was was one of the dietary "blue zones".Out of curiosity, are there any writings (parts of books or whole books) of Ellen G. White you disagree with? And if so, which ones? What criticisms of Ellen G. White do you regard as most applicable?
What part of the book of Isaiah do you disagree with and What criticism do you have about Isaiah?I've read this entire thread, to here. And I don't recall a single SDA member responding to your questions and disagreeing with any of Ellen White's writings.
Are God's Word to his people fallible?I find that revealing. And also disturbing that a church finds any leader's words to be functionally infallible. Thanks for this thread.
I've said nothing about Isaiah. Is your second question regarding Ellen White? If so you've reinforced my observations.What part of the book of Isaiah do you disagree with and What criticism do you have about Isaiah?
Are God's Word to his people fallible?
If you want to get the real information about what the SDA church believes in you can easily find it here on our website What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? | Adventist.orgI stumbled upon this sub-forum recently and immediately noticed the number of SDA-related threads on it. Perusing them has been interesting because I'd never known much about the SDA church except that they worshipped on Saturday and that Loma Linda was was one of the dietary "blue zones".
I've read this entire thread, to here. And I don't recall a single SDA member responding to your questions and disagreeing with any of Ellen White's writings.
I find that revealing. And also disturbing that a church finds any leader's words to be functionally infallible. Thanks for this thread.
Thanks, but that wasn't the point of my post. My purpose in observing this thread is to observe the answers given to the OP and determine the degree of infallibility that SDA members ascribe to Ellen White's writings. From what I've read here I think she is considered infallible. If she isn't, what has she been wrong about?If you want to get the real information about what the SDA church believes in you can easily find it here on our website What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? | Adventist.org
Going to a debate site is probably not going to give you a fair view. There are only a handful of SDA’s who post on this site and most subjects have been discussed at length. Also, some posters who ask questions to SDA’s are not interested in our responses and have other motives. I would be more concerned with the doctrine and if it lines up with Biblical scripture, because at the end of the day, we will all stand before judgement of our Creator and Redeemer. Only God’s pure Word matters, not the opinions of man.
God bless