A forever hell

[Der Alte]

My view of the word Aionios is more in line with Rev. E. S. Goodwin's interpretation of Lennep's view:
Says that it comes from Aó (to breathe) which suggests the idea of indefinite duration. He says: It was transferred from breathing to collection, or multitude of times. From which proper signification again have been produced those by which the ancients have described either age (ævum), or eternity (æternitatem,) or the age of man (hominis ætatem.) Commenting on Lennep's derivation of the word, Rev. E. S. Goodwin, says:(3) "It would signify a multitude of periods or times united to each other, duration indefinitely continued. Its proper force, in reference to duration, seems to be more that of uninterrupted duration than otherwise; a term of which the duration is continuous as long as it lasts, but which may be completed and finished, as age, dispensation, sæculum, in a general sense.'

This is still the most comprehensive text I've seen on the subject of aion and aionios:
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Again, I agree more with Rev Goodwins view of Lennep's interpretation.

If one searches enough they can find something, somewhere, written by someone which supports almost any theory, as evidenced above.
Here again is my study of the words "aionios" and "aion/. No scholars no lexicons only the words in the NT.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
To refute any of this post simply saying "Scholar X says something different." is not enough one must show me how my conclusions are wrong
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued below]

 

[Light of the East]

Where is the verse which says the way is now wide and anyone, everyone can enter in?

The Gospel of Matthew is the Gospel to the Jews. You are making a very common mistake here. In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is presented as the Son of David, the promised Messiah. He goes about teaching in that vein and inviting all to enter into the Kingdom. After a certain point of rejection, His message turns to prophesy of the coming destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This happens because of the rejection of Christ as the Covenant Head and promised King of the Jews.

Matthew's warnings are not to be taken as applying outside the realm of Judaism. In Matthew 7, Christ is speaking prophetically about the coming destruction of Jerusalem, and warning those with "ears to hear" that the great multitude of Judaism will be "lost," not in the sense of eternally lost (you hellists superimpose this upon His words while totally ignoring the context), but in the sense of suffering the fate of being thrown into the garbage dump of Jerusalem (a sign of being cursed by God) after the destruction of Jerusalem.

This happened in AD 70 when out of over 1 million Jews living in Jerusalem, only a small remnant were "saved," that is, saved from the destruction of Jerusalem and from being horrendously killed. When the armies of the Roman general, Titus, drew back from the walls of Jerusalem, those who were believers remembered the warning of the Lord and fled at night to the nearby city of Pella, where they found refuge.

Where is the verse that says that anyone can enter in? It is found in the last book of the Bible:

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

The gates of the heavenly Jerusalem, which has come down to earth, are never shut. Anyone can enter in. This is the will of God, that all be saved. Your selective quoting of some verses and ignoring of others, your twisting of words to fit your agenda, and your refusal to believe what scholars have stated regarding words like "aionios" is noted.

May the Lord open your eyes to see just how loving, gracious, and kind He really is.

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
In Rom 1;20 and 16:26, the same writer, Paul, in the same writing, uses "aidios" and "aionios" synonymously

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

[Light of the East]

Except that aionios is not used in any of the above, but another word with a different meaning is used in the above.

It's not another word with a different meaning. The word used is "aion" and it is one of the derivitives of "aionios." The word "aion" and its derivitives all have the same meaning - age or something pertaining to age. You cannot, for instance, take the word "aion" and translate it as "world," as some of the wretched Latin translators did with the Greek. There is a specific word for world - kosmos.

So, for instance, the KJV wrongly gives Matthew 24:3 as saying "...and the end of the world..." people have looked at that verse and thought that it means that Matthew 24 is speaking about all the things that will happen when the world comes to an end, and have developed the laughable and stupid "Rapture of the Church" theory with all its associated nonsense. That is what bad translations have done.

 

[Light of the East]

If one searches enough they can find something, somewhere, written by someone which supports almost any theory, as evidenced above.

Well, isn't that EXACTLY what you are doing?

Dr. Illaria Ramelli is no slouch when it comes to the Greek language. Her papers are peer reviewed and she holds impressive credentials. And she says you are wrong.

When you take her on in a debate, one on one, along with Dr. David Bentley Hart, who would easily hand you your lunch by asking you questions you have yet to answer, then I might start to respect what you are putting. For now...it is the same old Fundamentalist claptrap I have jettisoned a long time ago (THANK GOD!!!)

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

It's not another word with a different meaning. The word used is "aion" and it is one of the derivitives of "aionios." The word "aion" and its derivitives all have the same meaning - age or something pertaining to age. You cannot, for instance, take the word "aion" and translate it as "world," as some of the wretched Latin translators did with the Greek. There is a specific word for world - kosmos.
So, for instance, the KJV wrongly gives Matthew 24:3 as saying "...and the end of the world..." people have looked at that verse and thought that it means that Matthew 24 is speaking about all the things that will happen when the world comes to an end, and have developed the laughable and stupid "Rapture of the Church" theory with all its associated nonsense. That is what bad translations have done.

Heterodox nonsense. Taught by people who know nothing about the Biblical languages to people who also know nothing about Biblical languages so they will uncritically accept anything their "teachers"/"leaders" tell them.
See my 2 back to back posts #222-223 immediately above.
Here are 2 vss. from the above posts where Jesus defines "aionios," twice.

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal, everlasting non-perishing life.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[setst777]

No, that is not the proper way to translate Matthew 7:14. Let's take a closer look:

KJV:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

YLT:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Notice that the verb is PRESENT tense. The KJV doesn't put the verb in the FUTURE tense but SEEMS to be worded as such and you presented in that sense (based on the context you provided). However, the verb is in the PRESENT tense and therefore the YLT gets it right. The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus and the Parsing for the verb from that text is PRESENT tense:

GREEK NT TR+:
Mat 7:14 οτιG3754 CONJ στενηG4728 A-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF πυληG4439 N-NSF καιG2532 CONJ τεθλιμμενηG2346 V-RPP-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF οδοςG3598 N-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF απαγουσαG520 V-PAP-NSF ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF ζωηνG2222 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ ολιγοιG3641 A-NPM εισινG1510 V-PAI-3P οιG3588 T-NPM ευρισκοντεςG2147 V-PAP-NPM αυτηνG846 P-ASF

The bold above those the verb (V) is followed by the TENSE (P) which is PRESENT tense.

So to say this verse is saying that FEW would EVER find the way would be teaching a lie. It just means that AT THE TIME it was stated there were FEW finding it.

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Present continuous tense. Few are those finding it.

 

[cfposter]

The Gospel of Matthew is the Gospel to the Jews. You are making a very common mistake here. In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is presented as the Son of David, the promised Messiah. He goes about teaching in that vein and inviting all to enter into the Kingdom. After a certain point of rejection, His message turns to prophesy of the coming destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This happens because of the rejection of Christ as the Covenant Head and promised King of the Jews.

Matthew's warnings are not to be taken as applying outside the realm of Judaism. In Matthew 7, Christ is speaking prophetically about the coming destruction of Jerusalem, and warning those with "ears to hear" that the great multitude of Judaism will be "lost," not in the sense of eternally lost (you hellists superimpose this upon His words while totally ignoring the context), but in the sense of suffering the fate of being thrown into the garbage dump of Jerusalem (a sign of being cursed by God) after the destruction of Jerusalem.

This happened in AD 70 when out of over 1 million Jews living in Jerusalem, only a small remnant were "saved," that is, saved from the destruction of Jerusalem and from being horrendously killed. When the armies of the Roman general, Titus, drew back from the walls of Jerusalem, those who were believers remembered the warning of the Lord and fled at night to the nearby city of Pella, where they found refuge.

Where is the verse that says that anyone can enter in? It is found in the last book of the Bible:

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

The gates of the heavenly Jerusalem, which has come down to earth, are never shut. Anyone can enter in. This is the will of God, that all be saved. Your selective quoting of some verses and ignoring of others, your twisting of words to fit your agenda, and your refusal to believe what scholars have stated regarding words like "aionios" is noted.

May the Lord open your eyes to see just how loving, gracious, and kind He really is.

You talk about rejection. Judas rejected Christ because it was preconceived that He would. Jesus told His disciples:

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

So you see, Jesus is responsible for the CHOOSING. He doesn't fail. Judas isn't a failure either.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

If any part of our salvation is owned by us then God NEEDs our permission to save us. And that IS NOT the case.

God is 100% the owner, architect, operator and finisher of our Faith. He has given the COPYRIGHT of all good works unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

If anyone is wicked, it is God who is responsible. But because man commits sin by his own conscience, man is held accountable.

 

[cfposter]

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Present continuous tense. Few are those finding it.

There is no such thing as that tense. Something that has happened in the past and its state continues is a PERFECT tense. The text shows it is Present Tense in the context of the time it occurred. If I say 'I was shooting a gun yesterday', that doesn't mean I'm still shooting a gun. Present tense simply means it occurred at that time.

 

[setst777]

But you believe God fails if you don't believe in the ultimate universal salvation of all. There is no way around that. Even Moses would rather have been blotted out of the book of life if God had not saved those sinners who rebelled against God in the wilderness and who God eventually destroyed and would not let enter the promised land.

Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

So God would blot them out of His book. Moses must have understood that God was going to ultimately save those sinners through a future atonement.

Romans 9:27-32 (WEB)
27 Isaiah cries concerning Israel,
“If the number of the children of Israel are as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant who will be saved;
28 for He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.” [Isaiah 10:22-23]
...32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone

 

[setst777]

There are numerous times where Jesus commanded forgiving all people.

Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.”

Mat 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

We should love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, but - in context - Lord Jesus taught us that we forgive others that sin against us when they repent first.

 

[setst777]

Your posts REEK of Calvinist dogma. (Yes, they have a horrible stench to them, not the sweet smell of the love of God).

He doesn't desire that all be saved. He wills that all be saved.

Answer the question: what kind of Divine Being would create sentient beings, foreknowing they would fall and thus be condemned to eternal torment? Would God, who IS love, do such a thing? Does love actually create beings with the sole will of torturing them forever, which is what Calvinist doctrine teaches?

Poor ole God. He really, REALLY wants people to be saved, but He is helpless to do anything about it.

What a wuss.

I am not Calvinist, and I doubt you know what Calvinist believe, because what I posted was totally against the Calvinist position. So, because you are writing from someone who has no understanding of what he is talking about, responding further to you would be pointless.

 

[setst777]

There is no such thing as that tense. Something that has happened in the past and its state continues is a PERFECT tense. The text shows it is Present Tense in the context of the time it occurred. If I say 'I was shooting a gun yesterday', that doesn't mean I'm still shooting a gun. Present tense simply means it occurred at that time.

Yes, there is.

"finding" is a continuous present tense.

The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.
Greek Tenses Explained – Ezra Project.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Present continuous tense. Few are those finding it.

How about those NOT finding it? Do they not become the lost sheep that the Shepherd must go out and look for...and find?

 

[Saint Steven]

But the main question you keep ducking is this: what kind of God creates sentient beings, knowing they will fall into sin and thus be damned to unending torment? What kind of Divine Being would do such a thing? Certainly not the God who is love ... but you tell me.

Right. The three views of the final judgment all boil down to what they say about the character of God. Indeed. "... what kind of God...?" as you appropriately ask.

 

[setst777]

How about those NOT finding it? Do they not become the lost sheep that the Shepherd must go out and look for...and find?

No, because the parable of the lost sheep are about those who did find it. They are his sheep. Some sheep stray, and Lord Jesus will try to find them. But not all are willing to return - some will disown Christ in times of testing, others will be deceived, others will deliberately live in sin, and so will be lost.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (WEB) 1 But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. 2 Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned. 3 In covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: whose sentence now from of old doesn’t linger, and their destruction will not slumber.

2 Timothy 2:11-14 (WEB)
11 This saying is trustworthy:
“For if we died with him, we will also live with him.
If we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we deny him, he also will deny us.
If we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he can’t deny himself.”
14 Remind them of these things

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (WEB) 4 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron

1 Timothy 4:14-16 (WEB) 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the elders. 15 Be diligent in these things. Give yourself wholly to them, that your progress may be revealed to all. 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 6:18-21 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.
20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB)12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

2 Peter 3:17-18 (WEB)
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

1 John 2:15-17 (WEB)
17 The world is passing away with its lusts, but he who does God’s will remains forever.

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB)
1 “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more.

Revelation 12:11 (WEB)
11 They overcame him because of the Lamb’s blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn’t love their life, even to death.

Revelation 14:12-13 (WEB)
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

Revelation 16:15 (WEB)
15 “Behold, I come like a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his clothes, so that he doesn’t walk naked, and they see his shame.”

Revelation 21:6-8 (WEB)
6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Der Alte

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

Nonsense. It took me all of about five minutes with Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Greek Lexicon to prove you utterly wrong. First of all, the word is not translated as "for." The primary meaning is "into." One of many wretched tranlations in the KJV.

Here's the phrase in Greek: 1:33 καὶ βασιλεύσει ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ἰακὼβ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος

The important words to this conversation are the Greek words eis aion. In the dreadful KJV translation (Lord, what a bunch of errors in that translation!!!) they show "eis" as meaning "for" and then "aion" as meaning "ever." What a mess!

Let's see what eis really means, shall we?

The KJV translates Strong's G1519 in the following manner: into (573x), to (281x), unto (207x), for (140x), in (138x), on (58x), toward (29x), against (26x), miscellaneous (322x).

Mat 28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into (eis) the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to (eis) Jerusalem, (eis couldn't possibly be translated "for")

Just a few of many examples listed by Strong's. You are "interpreting" with bias, not objectivity. You are making the verse say what you wish it to say.

 

[cfposter]

Yes, there is.

"finding" is a continuous present tense.

The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.
Greek Tenses Explained – Ezra Project.

But it doesn't mean it is always happening. The sun is not in a continual state of rising. Therefore, the few finding it doesn't continue to be the case.

Yes, there is.

"finding" is a continuous present tense.

The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.
Greek Tenses Explained – Ezra Project.

Nothing on that page refers to a "PRESENT CONTINUOUS" Tense.

You do realize that if you stick with that position how hard it will be for you to defend it, don't you. For example, tell me how the verse in Matthew 7:14 is not another form of Present tense? And how did you determine THAT verse was a "PRESENT CONTINUOUS" tense?

 

[cfposter]

Romans 9:27-32 (WEB)
27 Isaiah cries concerning Israel,
“If the number of the children of Israel are as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant who will be saved;
28 for He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.” [Isaiah 10:22-23]
...32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone

A remnant is saved. Why didn't you just try to say a "Chosen" group of people will be saved?

You see a remnant is saved which are a Chosen Priesthood. Why a priesthood? Do you realize that everyone saved now shall be Priests? Why? - because they will be administers to the rest of mankind at Christ's coming. Priests are of no use if there is not administration of the priesthood.