About Sabbath

[BobRyan]

Sunday worship is attested in 1st or 2nd Century sources. The NT wasn't canonised until the 300s.

I prefer the details given by actual Bible writers.
1. Sola scriptura testing was being done in the first century -- nobody was waiting around for 300 years for someone to tell the what to read. (Hint: Acts 17:11)

2 You don't say "Sunday worship was attested in the Bible"

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Acts 17:11 "they studied he scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

1. I'm not sure what you mean. It's pretty common knowledge that in the first couple of centuries there were false gospels that some were espousing as genuine

No doubt some fakes were going around in every age.. "And yet"

Acts 17:11 "they studied he scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

Luke 24:27 "Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures."

Josephus also admits that the text of scripture for what we call the OT - had been canonized and "a fixed set -not added to" for over 400 years by the time of Christ.

Without which the Bible we have today would not have been canonised. If you deny the authority and divine inspiration of the Church you are basically saying it was luck

As I stated above -- what I deny is that the NT saints were not reading the OT as the Bible and I also deny that they were not reading the NT letters but were determined to wait for 300 years for someone to tell them what to read.

My point is that you obviously don't think this, like myself you agree these were preserved and collected through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit. So we agree that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. My point is that the decision of the Church to institute Sunday as the day of worship is similarly ordained.

Rev 22 makes the point that God's Word cannot be edited.

You point to the very case where SDAs and other Sabbath keeping groups differ with all the Bible scholars on the Sunday side of this debate -- in that we (the Sabbath keeping group) argue for not editing the Word of God. The Sabbath commandment still points to the "seventh-day" -- Ex 20:10 Ex 20:11 Gen 2:1-3 Lev 23:2-3.

The term "Every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 was still a reference to the 7th day of the week even after the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't agree to the concept that scripture is above the Church in authority,

This only works if scripture is above church tradition

Acts 17:11 "they studied he scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!


As I said - "the only way" this works is for the scriptures to be above tradition.


Mark 7:6-13
6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[Sketcher]

In response to the claim that the OT only has Jews in scope for the application of the Sabbath commandment we find this:

BobRyan said: ↑
"The Sabbath was made FOR Mankind" Mark 2:27



Either way -- gentiles are included in the term "mankind". And Mark 2:27 speaks of the making of BOTH -- mankind AND the Sabbath which we see in Gen 1:2-2:3





That is a case of "you quoting you"

23 One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain.
24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
25 And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him:
26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?"
27 And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for mankind, not mankind made for the Sabbath.
28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath." (The Lord's day)
​

Speaks to the "making of both" and Jesus is there rejecting the false accusers and showing the context for right application of the Sabbath. This is not the pre-cross condemnation of the Law of God by Christ nor is it a case of Christ agreeing with His false accusers.

Nor is it a case of applying the obligation of keeping Sabbath to Gentiles, or even acknowledging such.

The NEW Covenant is in the OT

Jer 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

Exegesis informs us that the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers included the moral law of God - the TEN written on stone at Sinai.


And is verbatim - "unchanged" in the NT -- Heb 8:6-12



They did not have the nation-covenant -- they were members of other nations. But they had the New Covenant "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 by which Enoch is taken to heaven without seeing death (Heb 1)

Again, nothing about the Sabbath in there.

 

[Sketcher]

BobRyan said: ↑
"The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Where those commandments include the distinct "unit of TEN" having "Honor your Father and mother" as the "First commandment with a promise" according to Paul Eph 6:1-2 and still applicable to mankind.

Just as "do not take God's name in vain" in still applicable to mankind
For "sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

Neither talk about the unit of ten.

Bible details so obvious that even the non-SDA, non-Sabbath-keeping Bible scholarship in almost all major Christian denominations admit.



Bible scholarship in almost all major Christian denominations freely admit that the Sabbath commandment a included in "the TEN" and that it was Saturday as God gave it in scripture. They also admit that all TEN apply to mankind.

This is irrefutable. No "SDA interpretation" argument survives that detail.

Westminster Confession of Faith -



Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

The Westminister Confession of Faith also says the Sabbath moved to Sunday.

 

[BobRyan]

The "Sabbath" doctrine has two simple components.

1. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral Law of God that defines what sin IS AND is applicable to all mankind even in the NT.
2. The Sabbath commandment cannot be "edited" by Tradition.

almost ALL of the back-and-forth arguments are on easy-simple-part 1 where Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic, in almost all major denomination - AGREE.

Neither talk about the unit of ten.

Even the Orthodox church confesses it as now noted on page 2 of this thread.

...
Orthodox church

From The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com

65. Where may we find the elements of the doctrine of charity?

In the Ten Commandments of the Law of God.

490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.

491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.

492. What means the division of the Ten Commandments into two tables?

This: that they contain two kinds of love--love to God, and love to our neighbor; and prescribe two corresponding kinds of duties.

Notice that even the Orthodox church confesses "the TEN" -- not merely "NINE" and affirms that they are not "just for Jews" in it's explicit statement above.
.

11 pages of debate/discussion and almost all of it on "NINE and NOT TEN" ideas or else "all TEN Just for Jews" - which are the very points where the Orthodox statement above agrees with SDAs and other Sabbath keeping groups.

An entire thread where it is precisely your side of the discussion that gets hammered by those opposing the SDA and other Sabbath keeping groups... and you are silent. You leave it us to defend your own side of this discussion when it comes to "the first part" of this doctrine.

==============

Correction - Sketcher is Lutheran -- so this Orthodox quote would not apply ... for Sketcher the Lutheran material affirming all TEN is here -- 1 minute ago #227 --

 

[John Mullally]

The NEW Covenant is in the OT

Jesus declares the start of the NT in Luke 22:20 and it is later than you imply:

Luke 22:17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
​

1. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral Law of God that defines what sin IS AND is applicable to all mankind even in the NT.

Keeping the Sabbath is a Ceremonial law and it can only be considered a Moral law to the ones to whom God requires it. Per the decision of the Jerusalem Council (led by Peter, Paul, and James) in Acts 15:23-29, it was not required of the Gentile believers.

 

[Sketcher]

The "Sabbath" doctrine has two simple components.

1. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral Law of God that defines what sin IS AND is applicable to all mankind even in the NT.
2. The Sabbath commandment cannot be "edited" by Tradition.

almost ALL of the back-and-forth arguments are on easy-simple-part 1 where Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic, in almost all major denomination - AGREE.

Not all of them, Lutherans for instance. My view is informed by the Lutheran view.

11 pages of debate/discussion and almost all of it on "NINE and NOT TEN" ideas or else "all TEN Just for Jews" - which are the very points where the Orthodox statement above agrees with SDAs and other Sabbath keeping groups.

An entire thread where it is precisely your side of the discussion that gets hammered by those opposing the SDA and other Sabbath keeping groups... and you are silent. You leave it us to defend your own side of this discussion when it comes to "the first part" of this doctrine.

You're clearly more invested in that thread than I am.

 

[pasifika]

In response to the claim that the OT only has Jews in scope for the application of the Sabbath commandment we find this:

BobRyan said: ↑
"The Sabbath was made FOR Mankind" Mark 2:27



Either way -- gentiles are included in the term "mankind". And Mark 2:27 speaks of the making of BOTH -- mankind AND the Sabbath which we see in Gen 1:2-2:3





That is a case of "you quoting you"

23 One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain.
24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
25 And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him:
26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?"
27 And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for mankind, not mankind made for the Sabbath.
28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath." (The Lord's day)
​

Speaks to the "making of both" and Jesus is there rejecting the false accusers and showing the context for right application of the Sabbath. This is not the pre-cross condemnation of the Law of God by Christ nor is it a case of Christ agreeing with His false accusers.

Jesus didn’t said the 7th day Sabbath was made for man...
God gave His Sabbaths to Israel all sabbaths falls on different days..

Sabbath means “rest” or ceased from work..it doesn’t mean 7th day..

 

[pasifika]

BobRyan said: ↑
No wonder it is the gentiles in Acts 13 - asking for more Gospel preaching "the next Sabbath"



1. They did not ask for "more gospel preaching TOMORROW on week-day-1" they asked for more Gospel preaching "next Sabbath"
2. Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews.
3. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8
4. Lev 23:3 - the weekly Sabbath is a "day of holy convocation" they were in "holy convocation" ... the Sabbath commandment calls for rest and fellowship with God - as does Lev 23:3.

Preaching on Jewish synagogue in which they met on every Sabbath day..Gentiles don’t worship on any particular day..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Preaching on Jewish synagogue in which they met on every Sabbath day..Gentiles don’t worship on any particular day..

True, but Gentiles that stay Gentiles do not enter the kingdom of heaven and neither do they know and follow Gods' Word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

First, there are no direct Sabbath commands given to us believers in the pages of the New Testament. In other words, there is no command by Jesus or the apostle Paul saying something like this: “Thou shalt keep the Sabbath.” Also, the breaking of the Sabbath is not listed among the list of many various sins by the apostles Paul, and the apostle John (See: Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8, etc.). For example: When Paul says, that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God, he does not mention anything about Sabbath day breakers. Second, Colossians 2:14-17, and Romans 14:5 indicate to us that the Sabbath day is no longer.

Why would there need to be a scripture in the new testament that says “thou shalt keep the Sabbath” when the Jews and Israel had been keeping all of Gods’ 10 commandments including the 4th commandment Sabbath *Exodus 20:8-11 for over 4000 years before Jesus came? It does not make much sense in the light of that they were already keeping the Sabbath already with Jesus and continued keeping the Sabbath after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

You would think by this time if the Sabbath commandment was no more that Jesus would have had the time to tell his disciples that Gods’ 10 commandments and the Sabbath had been abolished but this was never the case as Jesus said to them “think not that I have come to abolished the law and the prophets I have not come to destroy but to fulfill them in Matthew 5:17. So Jesus made no claims to doing such things as your proposing here. In fact in Matthew 24:15-23 Jesus knew His disciples would be continuing to keep the Sabbath commandment according to the scriptures well after His death and resurrection when he says at the destruction of Jerusalem pray that your flight is not on the Sabbath day in Matthew 24:15-21.

So there is no scripture that says anywhere in all of God's Word that God’s 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day. Sunday worship is simply a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many to break Gods’ 4th commandment. Jesus says in Matthew 15:3-9 if we knowingly follow man-made traditions and teachings that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. This right here should be a warning to us about breaking anyone of God’s 10 commandments.

Romans 14:5-6

Where does it say in Romans 14 that it is talking about God's 4th commandment Sabbath? - It doesn't. Romans 14 is talking about eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days v5 (this is the context you leave out of v5) and judging others in this regards. Nothing about the Sabbath. This interpretation of the scriptures for Romans 14 makes Paul a hypocrite who's custom was to keep the Sabbath * Acts of the Apostles 17:2; 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4 (yes after the death and resurrection of JESUS). Now lets be honest, nowhere in Romans 14 does it even discuss the seventh day Sabbath of God's 4th commandment. If you disagree please show me the scripture. So how do you get that out of a single scripture pulled from chapter context of Romans 14?

Colossians 2:16-17

In regards to Colossians 2. Where does it say that Colossians 2:16 is talking about God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments when the context is to laws in ordinances v14? You may be interested to know that the Greek word used for laws in "ordinance" in Colossians 2:14 that your referring to is G1378 δόγμα "dogma" and means a "civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. Gods 4th commandment is not a law in ordinances but a moral law and part of Gods 10 commandments of our duty of love to God and man *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8:10; James 2:8-12.

There were however annual ceremonial sabbaths in the yearly (not weekly) Feast days of Leviticus 23. These unlike God's 4th commandment were linked directly to the Feast days and could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle that were shadows of things to come These annual Feast days are found in; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36.

By the way the use of the Greek word for sabbaton in Colossians 2:16 is not to "THE" Sabbath (singular) it is genitive neuter plural to Sabbaths or Sabbath days plural application. It is impossible that Colossians 2:16 is in reference to God's 4th commandment as it a part of the "finished work of creation" *Genesis 2:1-3. There was no sin and no law and no plan of salvation for unfallen man when the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3. Now notice something very important. God's 4th commandment does not point forward to things to come *Colossians 2:17 it points backward (Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy - Exodus 20:8). Gods 4th commandment points backwards because it is a memorial of the finished work of creation and the celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth...

Lets look at the commandment that points backward not forwards...

Exodus 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> {Because it is a memorial looking back to the finished work of creation that JESUS made it a Holy day of rest for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day} [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God {This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK}: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT. {Reference is backward not forward to Genesis 2:1-3}

Therefore, it is impossible for God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath to be a "shadow law" as all the "shadow laws" are laws to do with God's plan of salvation from sin after the fall of mankind from the Mosaic book of the law. God's Sabbath was created when there was no sin, no fall, no law and no plan of salvation because mankind was in perfect harmony with God.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Believers of the New Covenant are under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21, Romans 8:2). The Sabbath command (the 4th) is clearly a part of the Old Law given to Israel and not the church. We need to understand that if the Old Law is no more, and therefore, the Sabbath is no more.

According to the scriptures the law of Christ is not separated from the law of God (10 commandments) *Matthew 22:36-40 as Jesus is God and does not separate His law from himself which is why Jesus says “on these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets (v40). According to God’s new covenant promise described by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 God’s law is to be written in the heart by faith that works by love and love establishes the law in the life of those who believe and follow Gods’ Word *Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 8:4; Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:2-4.

According to Jesus the Sabbath was made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 on the “seventh day” of the creation week where God finished the work of creation and rested on the “seventh day” of the week where He blessed the “seventh day” and set apart the “seventh day” of the week as a “Holy day” of rest for all mankind in Genesis 2:1-3 and not commands His people to keep it as a Holy day of rest as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and earth written in the 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-11.

Several things should be pointed out here. Firstly, when the Sabbath was made for mankind on the “seventh day” of the creation week, there was no Israel, no Jew, no Moses, no law because there was no sin and no plan of salvation was given to mankind because they were in perfect harmony with God and walked and talked with God.

So to claim that the Sabbath was only for Israel is not biblical. Secondly to claim that God’s 10 commandments are no more is also not biblical as everyone of God’s 10 commandments including God’s 4th commandment are repeated in the new testament scriptures (scripture support here linked) and Jesus and the Apostles also teaching that God’ law is not abolished it is established in the lives of those who believe and follow God’s Word (scripture support here).

more to come…

 

[dqhall]

And they must not take God's name in vain - and they must not covet and they must honor parents and they must "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 -- none of which appear in Acts 15.

1. The Church did not tell the gentiles to toss their Bibles out the window and only use 2 sentences as their new Bible.
2. The issue in Acts 15:1 was the totally man-made tradition that the gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. The issue of "making stuff" up was front and center and the NT church rejected it - choosing to stick with the Word of God - which had no command in it that gentiles needed to be circumcised to be saved (OT or NT)

The stonings for healing during Sabbath are gone. The animal sacrifices are gone. God did not want sacrifices. Trust in God, the Bible is not perfect. God works seven days a week. It is nice to be free to do what one likes on the seventh day. When I was young I thanked God for the strength to work 60 hours a week, working seven days a week in a full time and part time job. Saturday Sabbath vs Sunday Sabbath arguments do not impress me. People worked in shifts, that is how the power stays on and the trains run seven days a week.

 

[prodromos]

Even the Orthodox church confesses it as now noted on page 2 of this thread.

498. In which of the Ten Commandments are we taught our duties towards God?

In the first four.

499. What are these duties?

In the first commandment we are taught to know and worship the true God.

In the second, to abstain from false worship.

In the third, not to sin against God's worship even by word.

In the fourth, to keep a certain order in the time and acts of God's worship.

...

536. Why is it commanded to keep the seventh, rather than any other day, holy to God?

Because God in six days made the world, and on the seventh day rested from the work of creation.

537. Is the Sabbath kept in the Christian Church?

It is not kept, strictly speaking, as a holy day; but still in memory of the creation of the world, and in continuation of its original observance, it is distinguished from the other days of the week by a relaxation of the rule for fasting.

538. How, then, does the Christian Church obey the fourth commandment?

She still to every six days keeps a seventh, only not the last of the seven days, which is the Sabbath, but the first day in every week, which is the Day of the Resurrection, or lord's Day.

539. Since when do we keep the Day of the Resurrection?

From the very time of Christ's resurrection.​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more

Scripture are already provided above showing from Jesus and the Apostles that everyone of God’s 10 commandments including God’s 4th commandment are repeated in the new testament scriptures (scripture support here linked) and Jesus and the Apostles teaching that God’ law is not abolished it is established in the lives of those who believe and follow God’s Word (scripture support here). Let’s look at each of your scriptures and see if they support your view that Gods 10 commandments are no longer a requirement for Christian living.

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

Agreed we have a new covenant now, but what was the old covenant and what is now the new covenant and what laws are continued in the new covenant and what laws are the “shadows” fulfilled in the body of Christ based on better promises *Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:1-6?

According to the scriptures Gods’ 10 commandments in the new covenant have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we knowingly break anyone of them (including God’s 4th commandment that is one of Gods 10 commandments – Exodus 20:8-11) we stand guilty before God of sin.

So we need to have an understanding of what the old and new covenant are to know what were shadows fulfilled in the body of Christ and what continue to be God’s eternal laws of moral right doing and moral wrong doing (sin and righteousness). A careful study of the scriptures will show that it is the “shadow laws” for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, earthly Sanctuary laws; laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision etc) written in the “book of the covenant” *Exodus 24:7 that are now fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises (Hebrews 8:1-6) not God’s eternal law (the 10 commandments) that in the new covenant continue to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7.

So Hebrews 8:13 does not support a view that only the 10 commandments were all that there was to the old covenant that is replaced by the new covenant and that God’s 10 commandments are abolished when the new covenant scriptures state the opposite.

more to come....

 

[LoveGodsWord]

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4). "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

According to the chapter context of Romans 7 the law being discussed in Romans 7:4-6 is using the example of “marriage” between the flesh and the Spirit. The old man of sin (the first husband) that has died with Christ and the new man (married to another) that has risen with Christ. The contexts of Romans 7 here in discussion is to Romans 6:1-23 which shows that those who have died in Christ (first husband) partake of His resurrection from the dead in trespasses and sin to being alive in Christ (married to another, new husband) not to practice sin (breaking of Gods' commandments) as shown in Romans 7:1-3.

Being dead to the law in Romans 7:4 is not saying we disregard God's law (10 commandments) or any one of God's commandments for that matter as the purpose of Gods law in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. That is why Paul says the law (10 commandments) as stated a little further after Paul explains the purpose of God’s law in Romans 7:7 (not marriage law) is holy, just and good in Romans 7:12.

The context of Romans 7:4 is to the example of marriage and being married to the new husband (Christ) in the Spirit *Romans 7:1-6. While we are married to the flesh (the old sinful man) we cannot be married to Christ in the Spirit (we cannot serve two masters for we will hate the one and love the other). Romans 7:5-6 adds a little more clarity [5], For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.[6], But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

According to the scriptures the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through JESUS Christ our Lord (our new husband to those who have died to the flesh - see Romans 6) and been made free to walk in the Spirit *Romans 6:23; Romans 7:1-6; Romans 8:1-4; 13; Galatians 5:16. Have a prayerful read of Romans 6 dear friend. It will help your study as Romans 7 is just a different expression of the same subject matter. Showing that it is the old man of sin that we die to not God’s law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7.

So no Romans 7:4-6 does not teach God’s 10 commandments are abolished it contrasts that laws of the flesh (sinful human nature) with the law of the Spirit (believing and following God’s Word). The law is not sin and death according to Paul as all it can do is give us a knowledge of what sin is when Gods’ law is broken *Romans 7:7; wherefore says Paul the law is holy, just and good *Romans 7:12.

This concludes in Romans 8:1-4 where Paul says 1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,1 condemned sin in the flesh: 4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5, For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit (see also the context to Romans 7 which is Romans 6:1-23).

more to come....

 

[LoveGodsWord]

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14). 20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Colossians 2:20-23). “By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

According to the scriptures, the handwriting in ordinances are those from the Mosaic book of the law in Colossians 2:14. The Greek word used here is δόγμα (dogma G1378) and means a civil, ceremonial of ecclesiastical law that was against us.

The penalty for sin (breaking Gods commandments and not believing and following Gods Word or the certificate of debt) in the old and new covenant is death * (Exodus 20:3; Deuteronomy 17:1-5; 14:6-10; Exodus 22:20; Exodus 20:4; Exodus 20:4; Deuteronomy 27: 15; Exodus 20:7; Leviticus 24:16; Exodus 20:12; Exodus 21:15-17; Exodus 20: 13; Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35:31-33; Exodus 20:14; Leviticus 20:10; John 8:3-5; Romans 6:23 (see also Deuteronomy 28 to Deuteronomy 30 etc).

It is therefore the penalty for sin that Jesus nailed to the cross for those who believe and follow Gods' Word which is the certificate of debt we owe to God that Jesus died for which we all owe God for our sins (disobedience to God’s law). The penalty of sin are the laws that "were against us" *Colossians 2:14 because all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God *Romans 3:19-23 and the wages of sins is death *Romans 6:23 but we read God so loved our world that he gave us His only begotten Son that who so ever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life and through His stripes we are now healed and in His death and are set free to return to God in forgiveness of sin and be reconciled to him *John 3:16; Isaiah 53:5.

The above when applied to Colossians 2:20 in application is also to the English word translated “ordinance” but the Greek word used here is different to δόγμα (dogma G1378) used in Colossians 2:14. In Colossians 2:20 the Greek word translated as “ordinance” is δογματίζω (dogmatízō G1379) which comes from δόγμα (dogma G1378) used in Colossians 2:14 and means to submit to a ceremonial rule. So your interpretation that Colossians 2 is talking about the 10 commandments being abolished is simply not biblical as it is the penalty of sin (death) that was nailed to the cross not God’s 10 commandments which Paul says is Holy Just and Good and gives us a knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Romans 7:12) and leads us to Christ that we might receive Gods forgiveness through faith *Galatians 3:22-25 so that we might be made free to walk in God’s Spirit *Galatians 5:16; It is the condemnation for sin that Jesus nailed to the cross *Colossians 2:14; Romans 8:1-4 not God’s 10 commandments.

According to the scriptures it is the “shadow laws” for remission of sins that are now fulfilled in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17. As shown through the scriptures above your interpretation that Colossians 2 being in reference to Gods 10 commandments being nailed to the cross is not biblical.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

Hebrews 7:18 is not talking about God’s 10 commandments being changed. Hebrews 7 is talking about the change in the law of the Priesthood. In the old covenant the laws of the Priesthood were only allowed from the tribe of Levi (see Exodus 28 to Exodus 29; Leviticus 8 to Leviticus10). The rest of the Levites assisted the priests (Numbers 3:5-9). Hebrews 7:1-25 is talking about the change of the laws of the Priesthood because Jesus was not from the tribe of Levi but of the tribe of Judah, and His Priesthood as our great high Priest being of the order of Melchisedek. Hebrews 7 therefore has nothing to do whatsoever to the 10 commandments being changes.

Hebrews 7:12-17, [12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13], For he of whom these things are spoken pertains to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14], For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. [15], And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there rises another priest, [16], Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [17], For he testifies, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

So the change of the law here is not to God's 10 commandments but to the Law of the Priesthood as only those from the tribe of Levi were allowed to be Priests in the earthly Sanctuary service according to the laws of the Priesthood *Exodus 28 to Exodus 29; Leviticus 8 to Leviticus10 etc..

Nothing you have provided above dear friend show that Gods’ 10 commandments have been abolished. The change of law here as shown above in the scriptures is to the change of the laws of the Levitical Priesthood not the 10 commandments.

Hope this is helpful. More to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10). 16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17). ”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

Thank you this is what I have been already sharing with you from the start. It is the “shadow laws” for remission of sins that are fulfilled in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 not the 10 commandments. Hebrews 9 has nothing to do with the 10 commandments it is about the Mosaic “shadow laws” for remission of sins. That is, the new covenant has no more laws of the Levitical Priesthood, not more animal sacrifices and sin offerings which are now fulfilled in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. Jesus is now our great high Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:2 who is also God's perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:14-24; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:10-12; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 4:10. There is once again nothing in Hebrews 9 that says God’s 10 commandments have now been abolished. That teaching here dear friend is pretty much against all the scriptures of the new covenant and the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles (scripture support here).

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

So how does this support your view that God’s 10 commandments have been abolished? – It doesn’t these scriptures support what has been shared with you already and that is Jesus represents the God’s sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; John 1:36 under Gods’ new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

Once again, the context here is not to God’s 10 commandments but to the laws for remission of sins. Here look at the scripture context which might be helpful here…

HEBREWS 10:1-19

[1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year [Day of Atonement] *Leviticus 23:27-32.
[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.
[5], Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU DESIRED NOT, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
[6], In BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN you have had no pleasure.
[7], Then said I, Lo, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.

.............

Note: what are the shadow laws of the old covenant? it is those from the mosaic book of the covenant v7 is a reference to...

EXODUS 24:7 [7], And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

DEUTERONOMY 29:21 [21], And the LORD shall separate him to evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the COVENANT THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26], Take this BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the SIDE OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

2 KINGS 23:2 [2], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which was found in the house of the LORD.

2 KINGS 23:3 [3], And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THIS COVENANT THAT WERE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. And all the people stood to the covenant.

2 KINGS 23:21 [21], And the king commanded all the people, saying, KEEP THE PASSOVER OF THE LORD your God, AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THIS COVENANT.

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Continuing..

[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DESIRED NOT, neither had pleasure in them; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;

NOTE: We are talking about the BOOK of the LAW *DEUTERONOMY 31:26 not God's 10 COMMANDMENTS in this chapter as again outlined in HEBREWS 10:7-8 above

[9], Then said he, LO I COME TO DO YOUR WILL O GOD. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MIGHT ESTABLISH THE SECOND

Note: new covenant no more animal sacrifices from the mosaic book of the law

[10], By the which will we are sanctified through THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS ONCE AND FOR ALL.
[11], And every priest stands daily ministering and offering frequently the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12], BUT THIS MAN, AFTER HE HAD OFFERED ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER, sat down on the right hand of God;
[13], From then on waiting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[14], For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.
[15], The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after this he had said before,

[16], THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM;

[17], And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[18], Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[19], Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

NOTE: The new covenant is no more shadow laws and animal sacrifices from the mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) God's LAW is to be written in a new heart to love * Romans 13:8-10. Once again there is nothing in this scripture that says God’s 10 commandments are now abolished.

Hope this is helpful. More to come..