Was the 70th Week of Daniel Fulfilled during the First Century?

[jgr]

Did you expect a naked body?

Is that how Jesus appeared after His resurrection?

 

[Timtofly]

Is that how Jesus appeared after His resurrection?

The Bible does not say when Jesus left the tomb. It was before the stone was rolled away. He found clothes, just like Lazarus had to find some clothes. Are you saying we cannot have incorruptible bodies unless they are automatically clothed? Lazarus was wrapped up, he still needed earthly clothes to put on. Jesus did not walk out of the tomb. He was God, and did not have to.

 

[jgr]

The Bible does not say when Jesus left the tomb. It was before the stone was rolled away. He found clothes, just like Lazarus had to find some clothes. Are you saying we cannot have incorruptible bodies unless they are automatically clothed? Lazarus was wrapped up, he still needed earthly clothes to put on. Jesus did not walk out of the tomb. He was God, and did not have to.

Why was Lazarus wrapped up if he had an incorruptible body? Jesus wasn't wrapped up.

If Lazarus had an incorruptible body, he wouldn't have needed earthly clothes to put on. He would have had incorruptible attire for his incorruptible body.

Jesus did not need earthly clothes to put on. He had incorruptible attire for His incorruptible Body.

 

[Timtofly]

Why was Lazarus wrapped up if he had an incorruptible body? Jesus wasn't wrapped up.

If Lazarus had an incorruptible body, he wouldn't have needed earthly clothes to put on. He would have had incorruptible attire for his incorruptible body.

Jesus did not need earthly clothes to put on. He had incorruptible attire for His incorruptible Body.

You are nitpicking the Resurrection that Jesus Christ promised to all who hear His voice. Now you introduce a type of clothing necessary to enter Paradise in? Should Lazarus have been wearing a 3 piece suit, shirt and tie, necessary to distinguish Christians today from the rest of the world? Which Era of clothing should he have been wearing? Has clothing changed in Paradise with earth fashion, or would Lazarus felt out of place if he actually wore the proper Paradise attire while still on earth? How far are you going to go with this proper Paradise clothing needed to be worn while walking around on earth?

 

[Douggg]

You are nitpicking the Resurrection that Jesus Christ promised to all who hear His voice. Now you introduce a type of clothing necessary to enter Paradise in? Should Lazarus have been wearing a 3 piece suit, shirt and tie, necessary to distinguish Christians today from the rest of the world? Which Era of clothing should he have been wearing? Has clothing changed in Paradise with earth fashion, or would Lazarus felt out of place if he actually wore the proper Paradise attire while still on earth? How far are you going to go with this proper Paradise clothing needed to be worn while walking around on earth?

When Lazarus was unravelled, some one there probably had a blanket to wrap around him. We aren't told exactly, and it is not worth arguing over, imo.

Lazarus was not in his glorified eternal body state, but in the same state right before he got sick and died - because to be otherwise would have been too significant not to have mentioned so in the verses.

 

[Douggg]

You are nitpicking the Resurrection that Jesus Christ promised to all who hear His voice.

Lazarus being brought back to life by Jesus - was to validate Jesus's saying that he had the power to resurrect them who had died in the future resurrection of the dead, when the dead in Christ bodily remains, dust, shall heard his voice - the redemption of the body from having being a corruptible type to an incorruptible type.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In the sense that it happened before the Creation of existence. Paul was pointing out that Moses and the prophets already knew that. How did they know about a future event? Because God told them it had already happened and they believed God. By faith they were part of the church, even before the Cross.

You are correct that it happened physically at one point in physical time. God already declared it a fact before He Created. Jesus left after the Cross, and created all things.

Yes, it literally happened physically almost 2,000 years ago.

Acts 26:23 says He was the first to rise from the dead and these verses also say that:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

1 Cor 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth...

There is only one sense in which He was the first to rise from the dead, and that is that He rose unto bodily immortality. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 that there is an order to the resurrection of the dead with Christ's being first and then those who belong to Him at His coming.

Paul did not mention anyone else's resurrection despite the fact that we know Lazarus and others were resurrected. So, this means that he was speaking of a particular type of resurrection which is the bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality. Only Christ has experienced that type of resurrection so far. And he wrote on that type of resurrection in more detail in the rest of 1 Corinthians 15.

All of the dead who belong to Christ will be resurrected at His second coming at the last trumpet and that is when we all will be changed and have immortal bodies. Not before that. That is what Paul taught. Your idea that some already have their immortal bodies is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[mkgal1]

So, this means that he was speaking of a particular type of resurrection which is the bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality

Great point. In addition to this, "resurrection" (not just "raising from the dead") for the ancient biblical Jews had a lot of significance - it was what was expected "in the last days" of the Mosaic Covenant which is why Martha said she knew Lazarus would rise "in the Resurrection at the last day".

John 11:24
24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

 

[Timtofly]

Lazarus being brought back to life by Jesus - was to validate Jesus's saying that he had the power to resurrect them who had died in the future resurrection of the dead, when the dead in Christ bodily remains, dust, shall heard his voice - the redemption of the body from having being a corruptible type to an incorruptible type.

It could have happened a few weeks before the Cross. It was not decades. People are free to believe whatever they choose.

 

[mkgal1]

You are nitpicking the Resurrection that Jesus Christ promised to all who hear His voice. Now you introduce a type of clothing necessary to enter Paradise in?

I guess you think the biblical text is "nitpicking the Resurrection" with this description then?

John 20:7
while the cloth that had covered Jesus’ head was folded up and lying apart from the other wrappings.​

 

[mkgal1]

It could have happened a few weeks before the Cross. It was not decades. People are free to believe whatever they choose.

It definitely wasn't decades before the Cross, because Jesus's ministry on earth was only 3.5 years before the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, it literally happened physically almost 2,000 years ago.

Acts 26:23 says He was the first to rise from the dead and these verses also say that:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

1 Cor 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth...

There is only one sense in which He was the first to rise from the dead, and that is that He rose unto bodily immortality. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 that there is an order to the resurrection of the dead with Christ's being first and then those who belong to Him at His coming.

Paul did not mention anyone else's resurrection despite the fact that we know Lazarus and others were resurrected. So, this means that he was speaking of a particular type of resurrection which is the bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality. Only Christ has experienced that type of resurrection so far. And he wrote on that type of resurrection in more detail in the rest of 1 Corinthians 15.

All of the dead who belong to Christ will be resurrected at His second coming at the last trumpet and that is when we all will be changed and have immortal bodies. Not before that. That is what Paul taught. Your idea that some already have their immortal bodies is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

They do not have immortality. There is no such thing as "immortal bodies". That is Greek mythology from Satan.

Those currently in Paradise have incorruptible first resurrection bodies. The immortal or glorification, the spirit as a robe of white, cannot happen until the Second Coming. Paul says we put on immortality.

"Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards."

"When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality"

There is a permanent incorruptible body around the soul. Then the spirit is around the body, put on like a robe around the incorruptible body.

Being mortal is being Adam. Being immortal is being God with the image spirit of God. We are not literally Adam, but an image or copy, lacking a spirit of light. With the robe of white, our spirit, we are the image of God. God is Light. The physical image of God is Light, not literally God. The Greek mythology says one is divine, ie God as immortal. That is missing the whole point of us being dead to our spirit. Our spirit is separated from us with God. Spirit is more than breath or life force. Spirit is the image of God making us 100% the physical image of God. This was manifested on the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus showed Peter, James, and John what the image literally is.

"As they watched, he began to change form — his face shone like the sun, and his clothing became as white as light."

 

[Timtofly]

I guess you think the biblical text is "nitpicking the Resurrection" with this description then?

John 20:7
while the cloth that had covered Jesus’ head was folded up and lying apart from the other wrappings.​

Jesus was 100% God. Lazarus was not. Jesus did not walk out of the tomb. Lazarus did walk out. No where does Scripture claim one has to have Paradise clothing to be considered resurrected. Jesus did not have on Paradise clothing to make Him look different. Mary thought He was the caretaker of the Garden, who moved the body of Jesus. Should His clothes have given Him away, or His voice? Jesus still had the scars in His Resurrection body. Is that only unique to Jesus?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

They do not have immortality. There is no such thing as "immortal bodies". That is Greek mythology from Satan.

Those currently in Paradise have incorruptible first resurrection bodies. The immortal or glorification, the spirit as a robe of white, cannot happen until the Second Coming. Paul says we put on immortality.

This is complete nonsense. To be incorruptible is the same thing as being immortal.

Definition of incorruptible: Not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

Definition of immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.

Also, Paul indicates that we are changed and will have incorruptible and immortal bodies at the last trumpet. So, why are you trying to say that anyone already has an incorruptible body?

Your doctrine simply contradicts what Paul taught here:

1 Corinthians 15:51
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Our being changed to have incorruptible and immortal bodies happens at the last trumpet, which has not yet occurred. There's no way around that.

 

[jgr]

You are nitpicking the Resurrection that Jesus Christ promised to all who hear His voice. Now you introduce a type of clothing necessary to enter Paradise in? Should Lazarus have been wearing a 3 piece suit, shirt and tie, necessary to distinguish Christians today from the rest of the world? Which Era of clothing should he have been wearing? Has clothing changed in Paradise with earth fashion, or would Lazarus felt out of place if he actually wore the proper Paradise attire while still on earth? How far are you going to go with this proper Paradise clothing needed to be worn while walking around on earth?

If Jesus gave Lazarus an incorruptible body, why didn't He also give him incorruptible clothes?

So that he wouldn't have to emerge still in graveclothes, and dress in corruptible clothes?

Did Jesus just forget about his attire?

Poor Lazarus: “Quick, somebody get me some corruptible clothes to dress my incorruptible body. Jesus must have forgotten.”

How could an incorruptible body bear to be in contact with corruptible clothing?

Jesus Body and Clothing were both incorruptible.

Jesus wouldn't have done anything less for Lazarus.

 

[mkgal1]

No where does Scripture claim one has to have Paradise clothing to be considered resurrected.

No where in this thread is that claim made, either.

The point was that no material matter hindered Jesus's Resurrection.

Lazarus wasn't "resurrected" - Jesus breathed life back into Lazarus as only our Creator can. A better way to describe what happened was that Jesus "restored" Lazarus back to life.

 

[mkgal1]

A helpful explanation of the Messianic chronology and how Jesus fulfilled OT Scriptures and prophecies. This video is less than 5 minutes:

 

[mkgal1]

One thing we are informed of about our natural bodies when we die is this, keep in mind.....this, obviously, is after Jesus's Resurrection that changed things:

1 Corinthians 15:44
They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.​

 

[jgr]

No where in this thread is that claim made, either.

The point was that no material matter hindered Jesus's Resurrection.

Lazarus wasn't "resurrected" - Jesus breathed life back into Lazarus as only our Creator can. A better way to describe what happened was that Jesus "restored" Lazarus back to life.

That's a great point, mkgal1. Scripture does not use the term "resurrection" to describe the raising of Lazarus.

Rather, it was, as you describe, a restoration.

 

[Timtofly]

This is complete nonsense. To be incorruptible is the same thing as being immortal.

Definition of incorruptible: Not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

Definition of immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.

Also, Paul indicates that we are changed and will have incorruptible and immortal bodies at the last trumpet. So, why are you trying to say that anyone already has an incorruptible body?

Your doctrine simply contradicts what Paul taught here:

1 Corinthians 15:51
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Our being changed to have incorruptible and immortal bodies happens at the last trumpet, which has not yet occurred. There's no way around that.

Because you are not making a distinction between the first (physical) and the second (spiritual) aspect of the Second Coming. Paul did make that distinction.

If there is no physical resurrection then you are those Paul is referring to:

"But if it has been proclaimed that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, how is it that some of you are saying there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then the Messiah has not been raised; and if the Messiah has not been raised, then what we have proclaimed is in vain; also your trust is in vain; furthermore, we are shown up as false witnesses for God in having testified that God raised up the Messiah, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then the Messiah has not been raised either; and if the Messiah has not been raised, your trust is useless, and you are still in your sins. Also, if this is the case, those who died in union with the Messiah are lost. If it is only for this life that we have put our hope in the Messiah, we are more pitiable than anyone."

There is no indication whatsoever that resurrection was not immediate, and not some future event. Paul is hinging the Resurrection of Christ on the fact those in Paradise already have an incorruptible body, the first resurrection.

"Those who died in union with the Messiah are lost."

Paul is talking about many who had already died, not future deaths or a future event. Paul says those who deny the resurrection, the first type (physical) into an incorruptible body, are denying the Resurrection of Christ. Then he defines the resurrection:

"But someone will ask, “In what manner are the dead raised? What sort of body do they have?” Stupid! When you sow a seed, it doesn’t come alive unless it first dies. Also, what you sow is not the body that will be, but a bare seed of, say, wheat or something else; but God gives it the body he intended for it; and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all living matter is the same living matter; on the contrary, there is one kind for human beings, another kind of living matter for animals, another for birds and another for fish. Further, there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the beauty of heavenly bodies is one thing, while the beauty of earthly bodies is something else. The sun has one kind of beauty, the moon another, the stars yet another; indeed, each star has its own individual kind of beauty. So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is “sown,” it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay. When sown, it is without dignity; when raised, it will be beautiful. When sown, it is weak; when raised, it will be strong. When sown, it is an ordinary human body; when raised, it will be a body controlled by the Spirit. If there is an ordinary human body, there is also a body controlled by the Spirit. In fact, the Tanakh says so: Adam, the first man, became a living human being; but the last “Adam” has become a life-giving Spirit. Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards."

The first thing Paul points out is this:

"Also, what you sow is not the body that will be, but a bare seed of, say, wheat or something else; but God gives it the body he intended for it; and to each kind of seed he gives its own body."

This dead body is not changed. It is not even the same body that is resurrected, ie currently in Paradise. What is changed? The change is the addition of the spirit.

"Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards."

The resurrection of Jesus was the first body, incorruptible. All the church in Paradise have one, because that body comes first. Adam was given a body first then breath was given. Adam only passed down a body and a dead body at that, corruptible. To enter Paradise the soul is given an incorruptible body. Not the same body the soul left behind on the earth. The corruptible body was from dust, and returns to dust. But the soul had to have that body first. The soul has to have the incorruptible body first as well. That is the distinction of the body and the spirit. The spirit is putting on immortality over the incorruptible body.

"what is mortal puts on immortality."

Immortality is not just the given definition of the word. It was the point of our spirit making us in the image of God. It is the divine aspect of being. Paul is not being redundant about a body that lives forever and cannot die. He is defining the putting on of our spirit, changing us from mortal, human, to immortal, divine.

We do not put on an adjective: "living forever". We put on a noun: "an immortal being". The first is physical, and an incorruptible body. The second is spiritual, becoming sons of God. Putting on the spirit puts us back as the image of God. Putting the spirit on as a "robe" over the incorruptible body. The second part, immortality, cannot happen until the Second Coming, and the church is complete and then glorified. Then Christ presents the church to God.

This is the order given:

"But each in his own order: the Messiah is the firstfruits; then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming; then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power. For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be done away with will be death, for “He put everything in subjection under his feet.”

Many, many get this wrong. Messiah is the firstfruits, and all the church currently in Paradise are currently in Christ as the firstfruits.

The next: "then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming." These are us dead folks in corruptible bodies.

The last group: "then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power."

This is the group, those who deny the Millennial physical kingdom, leave out. There are literally 3 types of "church" souls. The last type do not choose to be in the church, by faith or trusting God. The church according to Paul is complete and glorified at the Second Coming. Why does Paul declare a third group after the Second Coming? When is the kingdom handed over after a climactic culmination of seemingly unwilling souls being dragged into a kingdom after the church is complete and glorified?

John gives us 144k just after the Second Coming. They were not caught up and changed. They are declared "named and sealed" by angels after the fact. The sheep are separated from the goats after the fact. They are chosen during a rather climactic and final harvest of the vineyard. Then John alledges that Satan is allowed 42 months. Some still reject Satan and choose to have their heads cut off. More climactic culmination of lost souls. Then John declares a resurrection after the end of the 7th Trumpet. Not to glorification. A first type resurrection, with an escape the second death clause. Then a 1000 year reign, a physical Kingdom where more souls are born. This is the culmination before the kingdom and the defeat of the final enemy death is accomplished.

So Paul declares a culmination as context of a first type resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. John describes the culmination in the book of Revelation several places. John gives the length in Revelation 20.

Now Paul could have left out this whole part and still would have made sense:

"then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power. For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be done away with will be death, for “He put everything in subjection under his feet.” But when it says that “everything” has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah. Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone."

In fact a complete church and no stragglers is the theology of the church. The church is complete at the Second Coming, end of discussion. Paul was not quoting John nor Revelation, not even the Trumpet part. Jesus Himself said He was bringing the angels and the Trump of God. Paul put that part in about the culmination, by the direction of the Holy Spirit. This finality aspect of a last Trumpet is interpretation leading away from the Holy Spirit's point about the culmination. The culmination is not the NT church age of the last 1991 years. That is covered as those who belong to the Messiah.

Yes the last enemy is Death.

"The last enemy to be done away with will be Death."

In fact Paul says this later:

"When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.
“Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”

The sting of death is sin; and sin draws its power from the Torah; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah!

That does not mean it is one climactic event over in a twinkle of the eye. Remember the culmination is not instant. It needs time.

The church at His coming is the next step, it even takes more of the sting out of death. Notice that Death is introduced by John in the 4th Seal. Death was prophecied as being defeated thousands of years prior to it's introduction. Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:4

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Death is being symbolized as a "person" now collecting souls that will be removed from the Lamb's book of life once the 7th Seal is opened, allowing names to be removed. This Death will not be defeated until the end of the Millennium.

Paul is not saying that Death is defeated at the Second Coming. The church is complete and the church fulfills the prophecy of the victory over Death. Being the restored image as sons of God is part of the end of sin, as sin is the sting of death. When Adam disobeyed, death ruled. Sin was it's sting. Sin entering the world was as much a punishment and consequence as death was. Adam's death, incorruptible flesh to corruptible flesh, and separation of his spirit was the immediate effect. Living in a sin nature was the sting of death, and all choices would lead to death and it's victory over us. The completion of the church was the church's final victory over Death and sin.

Yet, the culmination still has to be carried out. So stating that it is all over at the Second Coming is contradictory to the very context of the chapter. Paul says the culmination is after the Coming and John states the culmination is 1000 years, then the physical Kingdom is handed to God and Death is defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire.