Was the 70th Week of Daniel Fulfilled during the First Century?

[BobRyan]

If Christ wasn't the first to rise from the dead with an immortal body, then that would lessen the significance of His resurrection

Only if one holds the view that humans raised from the dead do it by themselves so that Christ was not really the first to be able to do it.

And/or -- only if one holds the view that humans raised from the dead with immortal bodies - do that by their own power - so Christ was not really the first one to be able to do it.

Neither of which is true for the POV that most people hold .

Christ is called the "firstborn of the dead"
Christ is also called "the firstborn of Creation" Col 1:15

But we know that
1. God the Son was never created.
2. Christ was not the first human created

It has to do with preeminance.

Elijah and Enoch were both taken to heaven with immortal bodies (neither of them died) -- just like all the saints who are alive at Christ's second coming will be transformed in an instant and taken bodily into heaven with immortal bodies.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Only if one holds the view that humans raised from the dead do it by themselves so that Christ was not really the first to be able to do it.

And/or -- only if one holds the view that humans raised from the dead with immortal bodies - do that by their own power - so Christ was not really the first one to be able to do it.

Neither of which is true for the POV that most people hold .

Christ is called the "firstborn of the dead"
Christ is also called "the firstborn of Creation" Col 1:15

But we know that
1. God the Son was never created.
2. Christ was not the first human created

It has to do with preeminance.

Elijah and Enoch were both taken to heaven with immortal bodies (neither of them died) -- just like all the saints who are alive at Christ's second coming will be transformed in an instant and taken bodily into heaven with immortal bodies.

The order of resurrections unto bodily immortality is given in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. It says Christ's was first and then those who are His at His coming. Your view does not agree with what Paul wrote. That's the bottom line.

 

[BobRyan]

If some people, besides Jesus, already have immortal bodies, then tell me how you interpret these passages:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Don't "they that are Christ's" include OT saints? Of course they do. So, why do you have them being bodily resurrected before Christ's second coming, which contradicts what Paul taught?

1 Corinthians 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

He is speaking of the future not the past. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:"

And of course it is true that from the context of that letter to the church - the future has that future event where humans are raised with immortal bodies - and that would happen at the 2nd coming of Christ - which is the rapture of the church and the judgment of the wicked who are alive on Earth at the Rev 19 event.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

He is speaking of the future not the past. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:"

And of course it is true that from the context of that letter to the church - the future has that future event where humans are raised with immortal bodies - and that would happen at the 2nd coming of Christ - which is the rapture of the church and the judgment of the wicked who are alive on Earth at the Rev 19 event.

Of course he is speaking of the future. I didn't say otherwise. But, what he wrote in 1 Cor 15:22-23 is that Christ's resurrection was the first and then next in order are those who are His at His second coming. All believers from all-time (OT and NT) are His. Do you not believe that?

 

[Timtofly]

What difference does it make if Acts 26:23 is referring to an OT prophecy? It looks like you are trying to avoid answering the question and not accepting what Acts 26:23 says. It says that Christ was the first to rise from the dead. You can't change that.

In what sense was He the first to rise from the dead then? It doesn't take much discernment to know that it means He was the first to rise from the dead with an immortal body. Why can't you acknowledge that? Instead, you're trying to take Acts 26:23 out of the Bible without acknowledging what it says. And it's not the only verse that says He was the first to rise from the dead (1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5, etc.).

No, that is false. God may have planned for it to happen before creation, but it actually happened almost 2,000 years ago. It literally happened then, so there's no point to try to say otherwise just because you wish to try to keep your doctrine afloat. Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ was the first to rise from the dead with an immortal body. You need to adjust your understanding of the resurrection of the dead accordingly.

Paul clearly taught that we all will be changed at the last trumpet, including the dead in Christ and those who are alive at the time. That contradicts your false view that people are already in heaven with immortal bodies. No, only Jesus has an immortal body right now. Paul taught that when He comes those who are dead and belong to Christ will be resurrected (1 Cor 15:22-23) and they will then be changed have immortal bodies as well as those believers who are alive at that time (1 Cor 15:50-54).

You are attempting to change the very words of Jesus with Paul's quote of the OT. Jesus is the Word. I will trust Jesus as being the final authority, not your interpretation of Paul's interpretation of an OT passage.

 

[mkgal1]

You are attempting to change the very words of Jesus with Paul's quote of the OT. Jesus is the Word. I will trust Jesus as being the final authority, not your interpretation of Paul's interpretation of an OT passage.

What specific words of Jesus are you even referring to?

 

[Timtofly]

What specific words of Jesus are you even referring to?

The topic is that Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and Life even before the Cross, per John 5 and John 11. The words of Jesus found in both chapters. The reasoning that Jesus cannot be speaking the truth, because Paul quotes Moses and alledgedly "refutes" Jesus' own Words.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are attempting to change the very words of Jesus with Paul's quote of the OT. Jesus is the Word. I will trust Jesus as being the final authority, not your interpretation of Paul's interpretation of an OT passage.

I'm not changing anything and you know it. Paul said that Christ was the first to rise from the dead. Whether he was quoting the OT or not is irrelevant. And, again, I think you know that, too.

So, the question is, in what sense was Christ the first to rise from the dead? The obvious answer is unto bodily immortality. If you want to deny the obvious then that's your choice.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not changing anything and you know it. Paul said that Christ was the first to rise from the dead. Whether he was quoting the OT or not is irrelevant. And, again, I think you know that, too.

So, the question is, in what sense was Christ the first to rise from the dead? The obvious answer is unto bodily immortality. If you want to deny the obvious then that's your choice.

In the sense that it happened before the Creation of existence. Paul was pointing out that Moses and the prophets already knew that. How did they know about a future event? Because God told them it had already happened and they believed God. By faith they were part of the church, even before the Cross.

You are correct that it happened physically at one point in physical time. God already declared it a fact before He Created. Jesus left after the Cross, and created all things.

 

[mkgal1]

In the sense that *it* happened before the Creation of existence

What is "the creation of existence"?

Are you asserting there were resurrections before humans were even created?

Where do these ideas even come from?


Maybe we better focus on definitions of "resurrection" before things get even more confounded.

 

[mkgal1]

Paul was pointing out that Moses and the prophets already knew that.

The OT prophets didn't write about past events......they revealed future (to them) truth about the coming (future to them - past to us) Messiah.

 

[mkgal1]

What specific words of Jesus are you even referring to?

The topic is that Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and Life even before the Cross, per John 5 and John 11. The words of Jesus found in both chapters. The reasoning that Jesus cannot be speaking the truth, because Paul quotes Moses and alledgedly "refutes" Jesus' own Words.

Can you narrow it down to two sentences from Jesus that you're referring to?

 

[Timtofly]

Can you narrow it down to two sentences from Jesus that you're referring to?

Jesus claims a resurrection for whoever heard His voice. Lazarus was the first example. Lazarus experienced a physical resurrection, to an incorruptible body. That is what Jesus promised. That is what Jesus delivered.

Enoch and Elijah were given a first resurrection without physical death. Just like the church will at the Second Coming. Paul said the physical first resurrection change is from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body. Most humans will die. Some will not. Lazarus was Jesus showing His disciples and the Jews the power of the Resurrection.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus claims a resurrection for whoever heard His voice. Lazarus was the first example. Lazarus experienced a physical resurrection, to an incorruptible body. That is what Jesus promised. That is what Jesus delivered.

Enoch and Elijah were given a first resurrection without physical death. Just like the church will at the Second Coming. Paul said the physical first resurrection change is from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body. Most humans will die. Some will not. Lazarus was Jesus showing His disciples and the Jews the power of the Resurrection.

Those are *your words*.

I'm asking for a couple of statements directly from Jesus.....because that is what your accusation was about. It was an appeal to authority using Jesus's words as your defense.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus claims a resurrection for whoever heard His voice.

This is an example of why understanding a timeline is critical to understanding the New Testament.

Maybe this would be helpful? "Ministry of Jesus - Wikipedia" Ministry of Jesus - Wikipedia.

Jesus's ministry on earth was from the time He was 30 years old...until the time He was crucified (at age 33 1/2)....and several days after His Resurrection.

These words were spoken (by Jesus) *prior* to the Cross.

John 5:28
Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son​

 

[jgr]

Lazarus was the first example. Lazarus experienced a physical resurrection, to an incorruptible body.

An incorruptible body does not come forth in graveclothes that require unbinding assistance. Lazarus' did.
John 11
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

An incorruptible body arises free of all earthly strictures.
Jesus' did.
John 20
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

Get your bodies straight.

 

[mkgal1]

Lazarus experienced a physical resurrection, to an incorruptible body

He did? To an incorruptible body? Where are you getting that information from?

Edited: JGR gave an excellent explanation as to why it's not true that Lazarus was brought to life in an incorruptible body (it was his same old dead body they'd left in the grave).

 

[Timtofly]

Those are *your words*.

I'm asking for a couple of statements directly from Jesus.....because that is what your accusation was about. It was an appeal to authority using Jesus's words as your defense.

Try verse 25. Every one quotes 28.

I am just answering questions. Not making appeals.

 

[Timtofly]

He did? To an incorruptible body? Where are you getting that information from?

Edited: JGR gave an excellent explanation as to why it's not true that Lazarus was brought to life in an incorruptible body (it was his same old dead body they'd left in the grave).

So you and JGR claim Christ failed.

Those are your words, not mine. I claimed Christ did exactly what He claimed.

 

[Timtofly]

An incorruptible body does not come forth in graveclothes that require unbinding assistance. Lazarus' did.
John 11
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

An incorruptible body arises free of all earthly strictures.
Jesus' did.
John 20
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

Get your bodies straight.

Did you expect a naked body?