Mainstream Christianity is wrong about Matthew 5:27-28 (the famous “lust” passage)

[Billy93]

Its your conscience.

We are warned multiple times at what we choose to believe and which path we follow.

We are told to evaluate ourselves and warn others that call themselves by His name to do the same. All I warned of is to properly evaluate yourself. We will all come to regret the times we failed to do so or refused warnings to do so

If you get upset over someone reminding you to evaluate where you stand rather than simply leaning on theories youve come up with.IF that upsets you.... especially since you claimed to expect it..... it is not the one giving a warning that is having the emotional response.

IF God does not have someone or something for you... yet you still desire it, you go against His will, period. Claiming in your desire to know better than God.

Because YOU want something or someone.

We are all guilty if it to some degree, but there are those that excuse/justify it and those that turn from it, repenting and turning to their Father instead.

If you evaluate yourself honestly and still come to the same conclusion of your theory... that is between you and God, for He is right to judge you as He sees fit.... as He will do with us all.

What, is my conscience? What are you saying? We are told to look to Scripture for truth. You accused me of “twisting scripture”; how did I do that? You mistake my “getting upset” for guilt; no, I get upset over someone jumping to “Stop trying to justify sin” when my whole argument is that it’s not a sin - and you won’t even show me how my argument is wrong in Scripture. I don’t feel any guilt over fantasizing.

I get upset when I try and put forth an argument based on logic, and then people like you demonstrate that they aren’t even willing to argue against the logic of it. Either bc of preconceived notions you’re not willing to part with (that “lust” in Matthew 5 = “fantasizing”), or bc you are incapable of understanding, or are too lazy to give it the time of thought. Do you not realize that makes me more convinced I’m right? I put forth an argument, and then you dance around it and accuse me of things rather than put forth a counterargument.

Simple question: Does Matthew 5:27-28 refer to 10th commandment covetousness? Yes or no. If yes, then why do mainstream pastors and teachers act like it refers to something else?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I didnt say you watched porn. But fantasizing IS a sin. Its like the lottery, playing the lottery and fantasizing all that money shows you dont have faith in the Lord. He will provide for you, but you are coveting money. Its no difference with sex. You see a curvy lady in a dental floss bathing suit, YOU want her. You’re being about you. If God wanted you to have her, He’d set about you getting married to her.

 

[Billy93]

Coveting
coveting (present participle)

1. yearn to possess or have (something).

Nothing about length of time there.

Tell me why we are using current dictionary definitions rather than trying to understand exactly what it meant when it was written? I already showed that biblical covetousness is tied to hoping to actually take that which is not yours.

 

[Fervent]

Interesting, thank you.

Np. It's good that you're questioning and wrestling with the meaning of texts, but on this one it seems to me best to err on the side of caution. It may be as intense as the desire needing actual intent, but more likely it doesn't and simply requires the fantasy of engaging in something that is only proper for complete "possession." Warnings against sin should not be a matter of condemnation, because there is no condemnation in Christ, but a calling to live a life of submission. James seems relevent here:

You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.(James 4:2)

 

[Billy93]

I didnt say you watched porn. But fantasizing IS a sin. Its like the lottery, playing the lottery and fantasizing all that money shows you dont have faith in the Lord. He will provide for you, but you are coveting money. Its no difference with sex. You see a curvy lady in a dental floss bathing suit, YOU want her. You’re being about you. If God wanted you to have her, He’d set about you getting married to her.

And where does the Bible say it’s a sin? By your logic, whenever I see appealing food and want it, I’m sinning.

 

[Billy93]

One leads to the other. The only real difference is whether the opportunity exists.

Wrong. There are plenty of people I’ve fantasized about that I would have zero desire to actually commit acts with, even if given the chance… Plus, you do realize it is possible to think up an imaginary person in one’s mind, right? Let me guess, you think that is wrong too?

 

[Billy93]

Growing in Jesus is to desire what He wants and to take thoughts captive to His obedience, I cant imagine a mind full of sexual fantasy being sanctified.
To me the suggestion is bizarre.
You reap what you sow... The goal is pure thoughts, and to reject the little foxes that want to take residence in your mind.
A sanctified mind is at rest and in praise - not a mind filled with sexual fantasy.
He is to be at the centre of your thoughts - if you have recurring sexual thoughts then get prayer from a church leader or deliverance if necessary.
You may be struggling with an unclean spirit.

But nowhere in the Bible does it say occasional sexual thoughts are impure. God gave us sexual desires and there is nothing wrong with them, so long as they do not lead us to taking from another (adultery), becoming obsessed to the point of hoping to take from another (covetousness), or committing some sort of fornication, bestiality, homosexuality, etc. The Matthew passage that EVERYONE uses as the “proof” that the Bible is against sexual fantasy, is explicitly about someone who is seriously thinking of taking another man’s wife. It’s not about ordinary sexual fantasies that everyone has. If simply having general sexual fantasies was a big problem, then it would have been outright addressed in Scripture.

Also, this is what I don’t get about people who make arguments like yours: I’m guessing by “a mind filled with sexual fantasy” you mean a mind that fantasizes about sex for as little as a few minutes a day, or even just a few minutes every few days or week. If I think about literally anything else for that length of time, no one would accuse me of having “a mind filled with” whatever that is - but for some reason, the second it’s sexual, people act like it’s all you can think about and it takes up your entire day, or something. It’s strange.

He is at the center of my thoughts; I read my Bible daily and pray throughout the day. How does a few minutes of me imagining something, take away from that? I mean, by your logic, enjoying or thinking about anything other than God for even only a few minutes, is a sin.

 

[coffee4u]

Comments like yours are why I increasingly think I’m right. You show that you have no understanding of my argument/didn’t take the time to read. Yes, “lust” in your modern understanding does mean fantasizing. No argument against you there. But in Matthew 5:27-28, that is not what it means. I genuinely don’t understand why my argument is difficult to understand? It’s like people just skim over the argument and then respond with “Lust is a sin bc the Bible says it is in Matthew 5” - but the entire point is that that passage has been misinterpreted! Lol sorry, but it’s kind of maddening.

So undressing a women mentally and having sex with her mentally is purity?

 

[Jamdoc]

wow! this is such a stretch, im not saved and even i can see you are justifying lust. im as big a porn addict as they come, and even i know its a sin. and yes, im here to tell you that after almost 2 years of constantly asking God to help me beat this porn thing, nothing. im no further now than i was 2 yrs ago. but at the same time, i can admit looking at porn doesnt bother me in the least.

i suppose i know im going to hell though. im not saying you are, but even a hell bound adulterer like me can see you're trying to justify sin.

Why are you so convinced that you're going to hell and can't be saved?

You believe hell is real, you believe God is real, why don't you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins to have your sins forgiven and be saved?

 

[Billy93]

Because 1: the ten commands are called the covenant on two tables of stone, and the old covenant ended when the new, better, covenant came through Jesus Christ
2: the new covenant teaches us spiritual truths not stated in the old - you can’t say you have to define new covenant spiritual truth by looking at old, ended commands, which are superseded by the two love commands - and, no, the two are not simply the old ten restated - that would be redundant.
You can spin it if you want, and rationalize lusting in your heart after women, but that won’t change the facts - it’s a sin and spiritual adultery equivalent to physical adultery - as proven by the fact that hating your neighbor in your heart is equivalent to physical murder in the new covenant, but was not in the old covenant.
Thus you cannot use OT law to interpret new covenant law.

You’re still not explaining to me how Matthew 5:27-28 says that fantasizing is a sin. Also, we do have to look at OT commandments, when the word is confirmed to be the same. Paul explicitly says that He wouldn’t know what epithumeó was (Matthew 5 lust) if it weren’t for the OT 10th commandment. Thus, logic dictates that we find out the meaning of epithumeó by learning what the 10th commandment meant… This is basic logic.

Sorry, but the more that people refuse to acknowledge the blatant biblical fact that we can find the meaning of Matthew 5 “lust” from the 10th commandment, the more convinced I am that I’m right. I’m not trying to “rationalize sin”; I’ve asked God repeatedly to show me the truth. Well, Scripture is the truth, and He hasn’t shown me anything that contradicts what I’ve discovered regarding the meaning of this passage.

Also, the Matthew 5 passage is only talking about married women; the Greek word used for “woman” is the same as “wife,” and Jesus was talking about “adultery” which is biblically understood as a very specific scenario. Sort of blows my mind that people read an admonition against adultery and somehow think it applies to everything...

 

[Billy93]

So undressing a women mentally and having sex with her mentally is purity?

Yes? God designed us that way. Nothing in the Bible says that imagining things is a sin. In fact, Song of Solomon is full of “imagining” (very explicit acts) - and the couple aren’t even married till the very end!! The sin starts in when we seek to actually commit fornication/adultery with someone in real life.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Ok i think i see where billy is going off the narrow road, so to speak.
1. ANY sexual thought is sinful.
2. Lust is sinful regardless of who it is about. Even if you are married, and you lust after her, it is sinful.
3. Lust is bad. Period.
4. Lusting is about sexual stuff, coveting is about physical stuff that others have. So lusting after a single lady who is single also is sinful.
5. Hopefully this helps with the lusting issue.

 

[Billy93]

Ok i think i see where billy is going off the narrow road, so to speak.
1. ANY sexual thought is sinful.
2. Lust is sinful regardless of who it is about. Even if you are married, and you lust after her, it is sinful.
3. Lust is bad. Period.
4. Lusting is about sexual stuff, coveting is about physical stuff that others have. So lusting after a single lady who is single also is sinful.
5. Hopefully this helps with the lusting issue.

Huh? You’re not backing up anything you’re saying with Scripture… How am I wrong about Matthew 5:27-28? Does it or does it not refer to the same thing as the 10th commandment?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Why are you so convinced that you're going to hell and can't be saved?

You believe hell is real, you believe God is real, why don't you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins to have your sins forgiven and be saved?

i never said i couldnt be saved, but my repentance hasnt been sincere. I like porn, it doesnt bother me. And as 1st john says, true christians dont practice sin. I do. Porn is a daily occurrence for me. Has been for almost 30 something years.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Huh? You’re not backing up anything you’re saying with Scripture… How am I wrong about Matthew 5:27-28? Does it or does it not refer to the same thing as the 10th commandment?

it does not. Lust and covet are different things.

 

[Billy93]

i never said i couldnt be saved, but my repentance hasnt been sincere. I like porn, it doesnt bother me. And as 1st john says, true christians dont practice sin. I do. Porn is a daily occurrence for me. Has been for almost 30 something years.

You can always be saved as long as there is still breath in you. I went through a period of depression over thinking I was doomed forever bc of my past. Please don’t give up hope.

 

[coffee4u]

Yes? God designed us that way. Nothing in the Bible says that imagining things is a sin. In fact, Song of Solomon is full of “imagining” (very explicit acts) - and the couple aren’t even married till the very end!! The sin starts in when we seek to actually commit fornication/adultery with someone in real life.

To me that is extremely impure because that women has now become an object. She is a person with feeling and its plain disrespectful towards her. The Bible says to treat Christian woman as sisters.

1 Timothy 5:2
older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

Think about it, would you go up and tell her that you did that?

 

[Toro]

What, is my conscience? What are you saying? We are told to look to Scripture for truth. You accused me of “twisting scripture”; how did I do that? You mistake my “getting upset” for guilt; no, I get upset over someone jumping to “Stop trying to justify sin” when my whole argument is that it’s not a sin - and you won’t even show me how my argument is wrong in Scripture. I don’t feel any guilt over fantasizing.

I get upset when I try and put forth an argument based on logic, and then people like you demonstrate that they aren’t even willing to argue against the logic of it. Either bc of preconceived notions you’re not willing to part with (that “lust” in Matthew 5 = “fantasizing”), or bc you are incapable of understanding, or are too lazy to give it the time of thought. Do you not realize that makes me more convinced I’m right? I put forth an argument, and then you dance around it and accuse me of things rather than put forth a counterargument.

Simple question: Does Matthew 5:27-28 refer to 10th commandment covetousness? Yes or no. If yes, then why do mainstream pastors and teachers act like it refers to something else?

Funny, you say "people like me" yet know nothing of me short of that I gave you warning to look to scripture, not to logic . I for one Highly disagree with most mainstream Christianity and a great many pastors.

Jesus could have justified through logic turning the stones to bread. He didnt. Why? Because it was the evil one, NOT His Father telling Him to do so. Jesus could have used logic to say God gave Him the gift to turn stone to bread.... and He hadnt eaten, why shouldnt He turn the stone to bread? Its not hurting anyone.

Jesus had the ability to do it, but just cause it was given to Him, doesnt mean it was to be used for self gain. He had no problem using that gift to feed the masses. Difference is all in who guides His actions and to whom He followed.

Logic can get us in a lot of trouble when it veers off from Gods will for our lives. Are His ways better, or are ours?

Do you honestly belive it is God's will to fantasize? Do you honestly believe there is gain for your soul in doing so?

You get upset, again, thats an emotion. You claim mine was an emotional response when Im not upset at all..... I didnt say you were upset because you were guilty.

I claimed you were the one responding out of emotion, not I as you had claimed. I simply pointed out, why would you be upset IF you got exactly what you expected? Do you scream at the wind for blowing as well?

Whether you feel guilt or not isnt for me to judge. It is for me to warn a brother or sister if I believe them in error, they do not have to agree with me.

The Pharisees loved their law, because it gave them ways to remain filthy inside, but be seen as Godly outside. Jesus came to offer righteousness... a clean inside. We are warned by Christ's words of what happens if we do not exceed that of the Pharisee..... so even IF you ARE correct and the lust spoke ONLY of married women. That brings up 1 of 2 issues

1) Do you ask every woman you fantasize about if she is married? What if she lies?

2) Why do you resist letting God cleanse the inside of your cup risking being on the same level as a Pharisee. Yes, God gave you and every man/woman their sex drive.... just as Christ was given gifts.... they arent to be used in every occasion, but in His intended context

A man, to his wife and to a wife her husband. IF the woman is not your wife.... would you rather take a chance that you allowed logic to lead down a dangerous path....and cling to that which does not benefit your soul, but only gratifies the flesh... or.... would you rather take up a cross and put down your flesh for what is what is of benefit to your spirit..... but costs your flesh... that which you desire for the moment.

 

[Billy93]

Np. It's good that you're questioning and wrestling with the meaning of texts, but on this one it seems to me best to err on the side of caution. It may be as intense as the desire needing actual intent, but more likely it doesn't and simply requires the fantasy of engaging in something that is only proper for complete "possession." Warnings against sin should not be a matter of condemnation, because there is no condemnation in Christ, but a calling to live a life of submission. James seems relevent here:

You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.(James 4:2)

Trust me, at the end of the day I want the truth. Which is why it is frustrating when people say “You’re just trying to justify your sin”; I understand what they’re thinking/where they’re coming from (bc I used to be that way); the thing is, since I “got serious” about God I’ve given up lots of sins, no doubt thanks to the Holy Spirit’s help. And if this is one, then it would be no different; I’ve told God repeatedly that if me coming to the truth means no more fantasizing for me, so be it.

…But when I research things for myself and come across articles that make what I find to be valid points (that aren’t addressed in mainstream Christianity), I do take them seriously and give them consideration, as I try not to automatically trust “the church” on basically anything these days. I mean, I grew up believing other doctrines which I later found to be false - not to mention that I’m a Protestant - so to me, the idea that mainstream pastors could be wrong about something is not some crazy thing, since (in my view) history bears out that they’ve been wrong before. Humans can be wrong, humans can deceive, etc.

So, I get skeptical and seek out additional context/info on the Internet for things that I find controversial, to see if it’s possible I’m wrong/have been taught incorrectly. Honestly, this topic for me was a surprise, bc I was of course raised like most to think that Matthew 5 is speaking that “lust” (fantasizing) in general is wrong. I had no clue that the word used is also the same word used to refer to the 10th commandment. Nor did I really know what “covetousness” in the 10th commandment was all about. I decided to do some research on this passage on my own because I didn’t quite understand how a passage about “adultery” could be used with a broad brush to talk about any & all sexual thoughts; seemed like a bit of a stretch for me, yet nobody ever questioned it. Anyways, this post is obviously what I came up with, from my research.

I still pray that God will “wake me up” and shake some sense into me if I’m totally wrong about this topic, and I do understand your take on being cautious. That said, I’d rather just know the truth 100% one way or the other. And the thing is, I do want to live in a life of submission to Christ; lol, you have no idea how I was living before I finally got serious and decided to give Christ my life. I’ve already changed quite a lot, and if this is an area He wants me to change in too then I hope the Holy Spirit steps in and clarifies this to me. I definitely don’t want to live in rebellion. At the same time, I don’t want to be made to feel guilty for things that aren’t sins, because the Bible does warn about that happening too; in the NT it speaks of how groups in the early church were already twisting things to make the Christian life harder on believers. So it is indeed possible for people to “add to what is written” and get people feeling guilty for things that are natural/not sinful. One doesn’t have to look far to find manmade doctrines and practices permeating various different churches/denominations/sects. So I hope you see why I am a bit skeptical/trying to reach the truth, and not just rely on all the people who try and make me feel bad, like I’m deliberately trying to justify sin or something. That is not my aim here. Anyways, sorry for the mini-rant.

 

[Fervent]

Trust me, at the end of the day I want the truth. Which is why it is frustrating when people say “You’re just trying to justify your sin”; I understand what they’re thinking/where they’re coming from (bc I used to be that way); the thing is, since I “got serious” about God I’ve given up lots of sins, no doubt thanks to the Holy Spirit’s help. And if this is one, then it would be no different; I’ve told God repeatedly that if me coming to the truth means no more fantasizing for me, so be it.

…But when I research things for myself and come across articles that make what I find to be valid points (that aren’t addressed in mainstream Christianity), I do take them seriously and give them consideration, as I try not to automatically trust “the church” on basically anything these days. I mean, I grew up believing other doctrines which I later found to be false - not to mention that I’m a Protestant - so to me, the idea that mainstream pastors could be wrong about something is not some crazy thing, since (in my view) history bears out that they’ve been wrong before. Humans can be wrong, humans can deceive, etc.

So, I get skeptical and seek out additional context/info on the Internet for things that I find controversial, to see if it’s possible I’m wrong/have been taught incorrectly. Honestly, this topic for me was a surprise, bc I was of course raised like most to think that Matthew 5 is speaking that “lust” (fantasizing) in general is wrong. I had no clue that the word used is also the same word used to refer to the 10th commandment. Nor did I really know what “covetousness” in the 10th commandment was all about. I decided to do some research on this passage on my own because I didn’t quite understand how a passage about “adultery” could be used with a broad brush to talk about any & all sexual thoughts; seemed like a bit of a stretch for me, yet nobody ever questioned it. Anyways, this post is obviously what I came up with, from my research.

I still pray that God will “wake me up” and shake some sense into me if I’m totally wrong about this topic, and I do understand your take on being cautious. That said, I’d rather just know the truth 100% one way or the other. And the thing is, I do want to live in a life of submission to Christ; lol, you have no idea how I was living before I finally got serious and decided to give Christ my life. I’ve already changed quite a lot, and if this is an area He wants me to change in too then I hope the Holy Spirit steps in and clarifies this to me. I definitely don’t want to live in rebellion. At the same time, I don’t want to be made to feel guilty for things that aren’t sins, because the Bible does warn about that happening too; in the NT it speaks of how groups in the early church were already twisting things to make the Christian life harder on believers. So it is indeed possible for people to “add to what is written” and get people feeling guilty for things that are natural/not sinful. One doesn’t have to look far to find manmade doctrines and practices permeating various different churches/denominations/sects. So I hope you see why I am a bit skeptical/trying to reach the truth, and not just rely on all the people who try and make me feel bad, like I’m deliberately trying to justify sin or something. That is not my aim here. Anyways, sorry for the mini-rant.

I can understand the frustration, people are often quick to judge based on optics. Keep pursuing truth, but remember Jeremiah 17:9 while you're at it. In a situation like this it seems the important question is not "is Jesus teaching fantasy is sin?" so much as it is "What is Jesus getting at?" which is heightening what sin is. The Jews thought that so long as they did the right thing their motives were irrelevant. Here Jesus says not only must you avoid engaging in the act, but you must also keep yourself from entertaining the desire that leads to the act. The point is to heighten and expand what is thought of sin so to question whether we have gone too far in our puritanism is counter to the emphasis.