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I give up: I'd rather go backwards, than forwards (in Evolution)

Freodin

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Because I keep "perspective open", I am 'narrow minded'?
Don't put words into my mouth, would you?

An "open perspective" doesn't have to mean that everything goes. Right?
This is something we all have to accept - even you - if we want to function outside of a pure solipcism sphere.

There is a reality outside of our "wants" and "perspectives". Would you agree to that?
Dealing with this reality can have consequences. Would you agree to that?

Because you have "faced reality", you are 'vetted from concern'?
Don't put words in my mouth. That IS one of the "outside realities", and the consequence of ignoring it is that people get annoyed with you for not listening to them, but to the voices in your head.

"Vetted from concern"... what does that even mean? That I am above criticism?
I am not. But in order to criticise me, you would have to present something other than your - or my - "perspective".

Because if all that there is is "perspective"... THEN I would be "vetted from concern".

There is something cheap about that, that I can't quite put my finger on?
Cheap? No. Irritating perhaps. It can be quite irritating when you have to face the truth of a matter.

I am particularly concerned that you think "Heaven" is irrelevant... being in Heaven, without a desire to change, is sin.
See? You fail to see my "perspective". Even when I am "the underdog".
Because all of these justifications that you present are just window dressing. Irrelevant.

You. Just. Don't. Want. To.
 
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Gottservant

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The fallout is this: Creation and Evolution have to maintain different "tells".

If Creation and Evolution have the same "tell", a minimum degree of variety has not been sustained.

Let Creation be Creation and Evolution be Evolution, and good will come out of either.
 
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Gottservant

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Don't put words into my mouth, would you?

An "open perspective" doesn't have to mean that everything goes. Right?
This is something we all have to accept - even you - if we want to function outside of a pure solipcism sphere.

There is a reality outside of our "wants" and "perspectives". Would you agree to that?
Dealing with this reality can have consequences. Would you agree to that?

Name one consequence, that changes because of belief in "Evolution"?

Don't put words in my mouth. That IS one of the "outside realities", and the consequence of ignoring it is that people get annoyed with you for not listening to them, but to the voices in your head.

"Vetted from concern"... what does that even mean? That I am above criticism?
I am not. But in order to criticise me, you would have to present something other than your - or my - "perspective".

I frequently provide a way out of any argument that I suggest might be relevant. Even now, it is possible that I am too readily appealing to Creation when Creation can be needlessly biased. Why do you not do me the favour, of giving me a way out of your belief in Evolution? Because it can't be wrong?

Because if all that there is is "perspective"... THEN I would be "vetted from concern".


Cheap? No. Irritating perhaps. It can be quite irritating when you have to face the truth of a matter.


See? You fail to see my "perspective". Even when I am "the underdog".
Because all of these justifications that you present are just window dressing. Irrelevant.

You. Just. Don't. Want. To.

You? The Underdog? When "Evolution" is the prevailing preferred theory, to the point that even monkeys are included in the direction mankind is to take? You aren't critiquing yourself, let alone your theory? Science, from now to the end of the human race, will do just fine without claiming to have monkeys on its side!

You can have the cake that scientists celebrate, at the end of the day you are going to need to stand for something because it means something - and the day you do, I will be there, to point out I never once said you had nothing to learn from monkeys or to build a commitment to a particular outcome, even with monkeys' help... I simply stood for productivity, that God alone could make a success.

Your "Evolution" is successful, because you 'make' it successful; my "Creation" is successful, because my God makes it a little successful, to begin with, then much, to finish with. You be the judge of what is better!
 
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Freodin

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Name one consequence, that changes because of belief in "Evolution"?
That isn't the topic at hand.
Believe in "Evolution" or don't. It doesn't matter. You are what you are.
All that we - I - are trying to do here, is to make you understand what this "Evolution" is that you believe or not believe in.

I don't believe in Christianity. I don't believe in Heaven. I don't believe in God. But do you see me making thread after thread after thread telling people about the problems with being an intelligent robot that is not capable of unpowered flight because of engineering problems? Because that's what Christianity is about, right?

I frequently provide a way out of any argument that I suggest might be relevant.
What you keep doing is providing "arguments" that don't make any frigging sense because they don't relate to the topic you are arguing about.

Even now, it is possible that I am too readily appealing to Creation when Creation can be needlessly biased. Why do you not do me the favour, of giving me a way out of your belief in Evolution? Because it can't be wrong?
See, this is the problem I have with you and SkyWriting's objection to this: I have no way to make you consider my requests. It's already nice that you are talking with me... but I cannot make you respond to my questions.

It just would be nice if you did, just for once, instead of going of into an unrelated tangent.

So, a polite request.
There is such things as the "content" of a statement, and there is such a thing as the "truth" of a statement.
Do you understand the difference between these two concepts? Please respond to this question, and please explain in your own words what this difference might be.

You? The Underdog? When "Evolution" is the prevailing preferred theory, to the point that even monkeys are included in the direction mankind is to take?
Heaven. We were talking about Heaven. Or at least, YOU were talking about Heaven.
Here it is: "I am particularly concerned that you think "Heaven" is irrelevant... being in Heaven, without a desire to change, is sin."

I don't believe in an afterlife, Heaven, and specifically the Christian variant of it where "sin" plays any role. Most people do.
So, yes, I am the "underdog" in this case.

You aren't critiquing yourself, let alone your theory? Science, from now to the end of the human race, will do just fine without claiming to have monkeys on its side!

You can have the cake that scientists celebrate, at the end of the day you are going to need to stand for something because it means something - and the day you do, I will be there, to point out I never once said you had nothing to learn from monkeys or to build a commitment to a particular outcome, even with monkeys' help... I simply stood for productivity, that God alone could make a success.
The "truth" of a statement and the "content" of a statement. See above. Please answer this question. Please!

Your "Evolution" is successful, because you 'make' it successful; my "Creation" is successful, because my God makes it a little successful, to begin with, then much, to finish with. You be the judge of what is better!
The "truth" of a statement and the "content" of a statement. See above. Please answer this question. PLEASE!!!
 
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Gottservant

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There is text and subtext and pretext.

Evolution skips subtext.

Creation presumes pretext.

Text on its own, has its own flaw.

What we are trying to do is hold each other accountable - I believe Creation has at least got the Ten Commandments, worked out -- what has Evolution worked out (that it is accountable for)?
 
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Freodin

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There is text and subtext and pretext.

Evolution skips subtext.

Creation presumes pretext.

Text on its own, has its own flaw.

What we are trying to do is hold each other accountable - I believe Creation has at least got the Ten Commandments, worked out -- what has Evolution worked out (that it is accountable for)?
Is that meant as a response to my question?
It didn't mention anything about Evolution or Creation or accountability. It's very simple:
The difference between the "content" of a statement and the "truth" of a statement. What is it?

Please answer this question.
 
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Freodin

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There is text and subtext and pretext.

Evolution skips subtext.

Creation presumes pretext.
Sometimes dealing with a foreign language can be tricky. As you might have come to know, I am not a native English speaker. So sometimes I miss something at first glance.

But sometimes I just notice things... and have to check:

"Pretext: a purpose or motive alleged or an appearance assumed in order to cloak the real intention or state of affairs (Merriam Webster)"

So... Creation presumes subterfuge? Really?
 
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Gottservant

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Is that meant as a response to my question?
It didn't mention anything about Evolution or Creation or accountability. It's very simple:
The difference between the "content" of a statement and the "truth" of a statement. What is it?

Please answer this question.

Your categories are off.

There is no content, only letters. There is no truth, only sense.

If you are interested in speech, you will be interested in context; if you are interested in conversation, you will be interested in subtext.

Supposing that these things are irrelevant is to use text as a pretext, that can either be justified or not.

So if you want to know how I value content, you need to understand that I believe the letters Christ used were divine and if you want to know how I value truth it is down to the sense of pretext I have, which should be more informed by pretext than not.

But answer my point, again - before you get your head full of how hard it is to understand me: what is the way out of belief in Evolution? Jesus said "if you don't keep my words, then the word you have spoken will judge you" - do you expect to be judged by Evolution? Or is Jesus mistaken?
 
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Gottservant

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Sometimes dealing with a foreign language can be tricky. As you might have come to know, I am not a native English speaker. So sometimes I miss something at first glance.

But sometimes I just notice things... and have to check:

"Pretext: a purpose or motive alleged or an appearance assumed in order to cloak the real intention or state of affairs (Merriam Webster)"

So... Creation presumes subterfuge? Really?

As Jesus said "a man's enemies, will be members of his own household" Matthew 10:36

There is nothing kept in secret that Jesus does not fight or commit to fight over.

The difference that escapes you here, is that Creation does not just presume subterfuge, but "perfect" subterfuge - even the Devil believes it. Not that God has a pretext, but that He is aware of the possibility of pretext taking over context - when to do so, is not good.
 
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Freodin

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Your categories are off.

There is no content, only letters. There is no truth, only sense.
Only letters? Qird fociitim yallu briaatk mims? Only letters?

The "content" of a statement consists of the concepts that are related by the "letters", or "words" or "phrases".
The "truth" of a statement is the internal and external consistency of these concepts.

Do you see the difference?

"There is a cat sitting in my lap." is a statement. All these "letters" as well as the combined sentece has a "content". It invokes the concepts of "a cat", a littly furry animal which goes "meow" and its position relative to my own body.

If this isn't the image that this sentence evoked in your mind, I really wonder how you are even thinking you are following this very conversation.

But this statement, as it relates to me and the situation I am right now as I am typing this text, is not "true". There is no cat in my lap.

If you are interested in speech, you will be interested in context; if you are interested in conversation, you will be interested in subtext.
So, what is the context and subtext of "Evolution"?

But answer my point, again - before you get your head full of how hard it is to understand me: what is the way out of belief in Evolution? Jesus said "if you don't keep my words, then the word you have spoken will judge you" - do you expect to be judged by Evolution? Or is Jesus mistaken?
In this case, you are mistaken. Or have informations that are not accessable to me.
Jesus, at least according to the available source material, didn't say that.
The closest I could find was John 12:48
"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day." (New International Version)

[or "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." if you prefer the King James.]
So, Jesus said that HIS words would judge me... not MY words. Or "Evolution's" words.

But if you want to interprete it as you did, and also imply that Jesus meant the same thing as you did: (Context and subtext, remember?): Yes, Jesus would be mistaken. Evolution does not judge people.
 
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SkyWriting

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SkyWriting

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And I keep trying to engage him on the topic to try and show that he is wrong ...

So you need to show him he is right. This is the solution you are looking for.
But it's more work on your end.

Learn how to say yes.
 
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Shemjaza

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Not from the preachers view.
The varieties of denominations, schisms and heresies seems to demonstrate that this is not in any way true.
 
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Shemjaza

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So you need to show him he is right. This is the solution you are looking for.
But it's more work on your end.

Learn how to say yes.
What if what he is saying is false?
 
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SkyWriting

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The varieties of denominations, schisms and heresies seems to demonstrate that this is not in any way true.
Like I said. People don't have to have infinite knowledge to be ready for God.
God has infinite knowledge and is ready for them, no matter what their background.
Logically, we can't expect people to be right.
 
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Freodin

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Astrid

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Hi there,

So I don't know whether to make this long or short, I just want to say that whatever Evolution is, I am not going to chase it. I just don't want to. I would rather be backwards and have faith; than go forwards and "evolve". It's not that I am not capable of intellectual denial of my desire to have faith, its just that "faith" to me, is everything: I cannot simply give up faith, for something that is poorly explained as "an imaginary past, with self-contradictory roots". I have tried, believe me I have tried.

You say "just let a mutation, dictate what you adapt" that to me, makes no sense at all - it is a deception of half measures "you won't loose your stand, you will just begin not to make one" when that is the very thing that God asks us to do: make a stand. That's what it says in the gospels "be able to stand". There is comfort in that, actually, because I realize that fundamentally, no one who believes in Evolution, is able to make a stand themselves - I am not in competition with people, who excel at understanding the word; I am at rest on the foundation that I have understood what Jesus said, that what He said will stand, within me, even if I pass over, to the other side.

So thanks for all the arguments, all the cheap shots - like that I don't understand something that is basically an unconcealed paradox - all the jokes that my attempts to understand Evolution have destroyed my sense of reasoning: I can cope with all that. I can cope with it because my Evolution is better than anything you could force on me, it is a failed Evolution, one that will never be forwards, until that time, when I strengthen it again in Heaven and do not have to come back, to explain myself, and why my Evolution is different to everyone else's. Not that I have tried to leave you with no explanation, but that the only answer to being able to continue to serve the Lord, is to do without the "progress" that Evolution offers (and nothing else, that it might be said Evolution fixed the problem).

I am the Lion, that doesn't want it's teeth; I am the giraffe, that hangs its head in thirst; I am the monkey, that is dissatisfied with more bananas. I am all these things because I cannot be anything other than what I am: a human being, who no longer functions in the realm of reason, because Evolution has called it into doubt. All of nature is with me, in rejection of Evolution, because it cannot follow it in strength, that the Lord may bless. Jesus Himself, hangs His Head in shame, because the Devil is naked and trumpets Evolution in every direction, without any sense, in how it might take an honourable stance on the life of its constituent believers.

It just gets easier from here: the more backward I stay, the less I have to think about Evolution; the less I have to think about Evolution, the more confident I will become, because I don't have to question it; the more confident I become, the more quiet I will be able to stay, having to use the concept of Evolution less, reducing my ambiguity, increasing the chance that I will just do what is normal for something God has created, as He has created me. In the end it will be unmistakeable, I will have made the backward backward, and my focus, the predator coming for my sense, to make me looseningly witless - that I may resist him, and still make the sense needed, to be at peace with God.

It is not too late, to be backwards with me; to defend nature, from becoming a lawless mess.

"Whatever it is, i don't like it" sounds like a three yr old
presented with a new vegetable. You sure thats what you want to
sound llike?


You certainly don't know what it is about, which is
too bad maybe, but you may not know any history,
chemistry, physics philosophy etc either. Who knows.
You are under no obligation to " chase".

Just please don't pass on to others an attitude
of "don't know, don't care, don want to know ".
 
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