Why Am I Eating a Pork Chop?

[BNR32FAN]

Don't be silly. One can buy all sorts of unhealthy foods at the market, and no one limits purchases in ignorance.

There are many poisonous fish that have scales and fins which includes them as being acceptable for consumption under the dietary laws. So not everything in the dietary laws are good for you. Hamburgers are just as unhealthy as bacon is.

 

[The Liturgist]

I suppose goats are also scavengers. I've heard that goats will eat anything.

My aunt bought three African Pygmy Tree Goats hoping they would eat the grass on her hill and act as natural lawnmowers; this was a mistake because they can climb trees, and they pretty much ate all of her plants and structural components of some of her outbuildings.

 

[Davy]

I didn't mention refrigeration, although that would certainly raise the risk of food poisoning.
This law had both spiritual and physical significance as did most of the laws.

Many of God's laws first given to the children of Israel was... for health purposes. The spiritual aspect was only... in that they were to obey them per God's Old Covenant contract with them. So you cannot just insert man's theories of what is spiritual in that. Either something is healthy for us, or it isn't. That's why God gave the two lists of clean vs. unclean. I'll let you know a little secret further on this too, per Ezekiel 44 Christ's elect are going to be teaching the unsaved the difference between the clean and unclean, the holy and the profane, in Christ's future Kingdom. So a lot of the stuff we're doing wrong now won't be allowed in that future. God's laws of His creation are not just going to go away, you can forget that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But he also said the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church; if you believe Sunday worship and eating pork or meat in general precludes salvation, thats a problem, because after the Ebionites ceased to exist, all Christians worshipped on Sunday and were members of churches where pork was consumed until the emergence of the Millerite movement and the SDA.

Well I would add that the Orthodox Church also worships on Saturday and has kept the Saturday Sabbath since it’s established.

 

[Davy]

This is something I've often wondered about. Chickens are scavengers also, at least from what I've heard. Yet chickens are a clean animal, I think.

So a chicken is the same as a vulture or crow?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many of God's laws first given to the children of Israel was... for health purposes. The spiritual aspect was only... in that they were to obey them per God's Old Covenant contract with them. So you cannot just insert man's theories of what is spiritual in that. Either something is healthy for us, or it isn't. That's why God gave the two lists of clean vs. unclean. I'll let you know a little secret further on this too, per Ezekiel 44 Christ's elect are going to be teaching the unsaved the difference between the clean and unclean, the holy and the profane, in Christ's future Kingdom. So a lot of the stuff we're doing wrong now won't be allowed in that future. God's laws of His creation are not just going to go away, you can forget that.

Perhaps you missed this but there are many fish that have scales & fins that are poisonous to eat and hamburger is just as unhealthy as pork.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't want to get too side-tracked from the subject matter of the thread, but I wanted to briefly respond.

Our logo has the cross in it. This is the official description of the use of the cross in the logo.

"Central to that biblical message is the cross, which is also a central feature of the logo."

"The symbol of the cross, representing the gospel of salvation, is positioned in the center of the design to emphasize Christ’s sacrifice, which is the central theme of the Adventist faith."
​

Many of our churches have crosses in various places—on podiums and in the architecture. It's not a center-piece for our churches. The cross is found prominently in the Bible message, which is the reason why we don't feel the need to display crosses. If you make the cross visible through teaching the scripture, it's ever-present in the hearts and minds of the congregation without the need for actual physical representations.

I frequent Reddit where, on any given day, you'll find countless threads on subjects like abortion and homosexuality. I and many other SDA engage these subjects, but the echo chamber of societal "norms" drowns out and down-votes most of our posts. This is expected, of course. You have to pick and choose your battles wisely. CF has a lot of forums. I have yet to fully explore them, because I spread my time over many forums.

For me, denomination is beside the point. It's whether a doctrine or belief is based in scripture or not. What does scripture say? In this very thread, you'll find a lot of argument, but little scriptural quotation to back it up. This is third-party belief. It's how false doctrine becomes so-called truth.

I don't engage in endless debate. I look for opportunities to witness to others and I post where I feel I can make a difference. Arguing endlessly in a thread is pointless unless there's new light to give on scripture. Our job is to plant seeds and let them fall on the ground they find, not drill them into rock.

There are some great divides between SDA and Roman Catholic denominations, but at the end of the day we're all Christians and there is only one truth. If a doctrinal subject comes up, I'll point out scripture. That's not me attacking your denomination (or any other), that's God's word speaking truth.

At any rate, back to the thread subject.

The word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1:1). And it is precisely the fact that you insist on witnessing to doctrines which are debateable at best, based on unconventional interpretations of scripture and the writings of Ellen White, that I am frustrated. I think that if you would leave us be and instead converse with us in a spirit of ecumenical fellowship, and be prepared to admit when SDA beliefs are controversial or not mainstream, it would relax this forum and promote more interdenominational fellowship, and drastically reduce the amount of polemical posts from members of other denominations like the Roman Catholics. And I can’t blame anyone for a polemical response, because this kind of thread, and the Sabbath thread, they are offensive to members of other churches who do not agree with the doctrines of Ellen White and resent polemical attacks on their churches. For example, saying the Pope was the Beast between 537 and 1793 is obviously going to seriously offend Roman Catholics. Saying worshipping on Sunday is sinful even when I also worship on Saturday is hurtful. You’re not planting seeds but sowing resentment and bitterness.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So a chicken is the same as a vulture or crow?

a chicken will eat almost anything. They’re even cannibals.

 

[Davy]

Well isn’t that exactly what Paul said in verse 5?

“by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, who forbid marriage
“by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 5.For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Later Bible versions get away from what Paul actually said, with "created to be received".

1 Tim 4:3
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
KJV

Some think that verse 5 cancels the meaning of that "meats, which God hath created to be received" clause. It's does not. There's a clean meat list and then there's an unclean meat list in Deut.14 that is per God's creation. Eating the clean will help maintain your flesh body, eating the unclean will work against good health. Prayer over eating a vulture carcase is still not going to make it healthy to eat.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well I would add that the Orthodox Church also worships on Saturday and has kept the Saturday Sabbath since it’s established.

Actually, this is only partially correct. The primary day of worship for all Orthodox Christians is Sunday. The Armenians only celebrate the divine liturgy on Sunday and other holy days. The rest of the churches do worship on Saturday, but the Vespers or All Night Vigils held Saturday night are considered to be on Sunday (the Orthodox liturgical day begins at Vespers). An actual divine liturgy on Saturday is less common, but they do occur, especially around Lent and Holy Week (Soul Saturdays, Lazarus Saturday, and the initial part of the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on the morning of Holy Saturday).

 

[Davy]

There are many poisonous fish that have scales and fins which includes them as being acceptable for consumption under the dietary laws. So not everything in the dietary laws are good for you. Hamburgers are just as unhealthy as bacon is.

Hey, our Heavenly Father gave you a starting point for what is healthy to eat and what isn't. If you don't care about that and want to keep making excuses for not following it, fine, that's your choice. But you are not going to change the laws He set forth in His creation for this world. Not everything He gave per His old covenant involved religious rites and ceremonial worship. Even His law that we are to love our neighbor as ourself was first given in Leviticus 19. So even though I am a Protestant Christian, and not Jewish, I well understand these laws, even as Apostle Paul did also when he said meats God created to be received.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Peter was a Jew and the dietary laws were specifically given to “the sons of Israel” not to Gentiles. There are no scriptures commanding the Gentiles to observe the Jewish dietary laws.

According to God's Word in the new testament all those who believe and follow God's Word today are Gods' ISRAEL. Nothing has changed here. We are all now one in Christ according to the scriptures and ISRAEL is no longer of the flesh but of the Spirit according to the promise (see Romans 9:6-9; Ephesians 2:11-13; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13. If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27. Gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Talking about dietary laws with SDAs is like talking about speaking in tongues with Pentecostals. Or talking about predestination with Calvinists. Or talking about loss of salvation with Arminians.

If one holds to a particular denominational doctrine, they're apt to only be able/willing to interpret scripture through that lense.

That's why I'm non-denominational.

You have been shown from the scriptures that the dietary laws are not a denomination doctrine it is a bible doctrine from God's Word and God's Word is for all those who believe and follow them (John 10:26-27).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The only place in Scripture where the literal Mouth of God is to be found is in the New Testament. But it is generally accepted the various purity laws were written by Moses under divine inspiration, and were not on the tablets of the law. Which God destroyed because the Jews made an idol of it, which the Pharisees were doing once more with their legalism, hence Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law (see Galatians and Romans).

Sure but there are many places in the old testament scriptures (e.g Exodus 20:1-17) were Gods' word is directly spoken to man. That does not delete Gods' Word from the old testament. Who do you think spoke and wrote the 10 commandments *Exodus 20:1-17; Exodus 32:16 that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin and righteousness that is also applicable in the new testament *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. According to these same new covenant scriptures if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin according to James *James 2:10-11 and all those who continue in known unrepentant sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth will not enter into God's kingdom according to Paul *Hebrews 10:26-31.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Really, I think its about which laws Ellen White and earlier Adventist leaders considered important, because otherwise, if we set aside the writings of Ellen White and the Adventist traditions going back to George Miller, there is no rhyme or reason to it. The Adventists go beyond the Torah in advocating a Vegan diet, whereas the Torah mandates meat consumption, for example, on Pascha. This is because of the views of the mid 19th century Adventists like Kellogg and Graham, the makers of cereals and crackers, that bland diets were healthier and also suppressed sexual desire.

There are some very interesting books on the history of the Millerite movement, the Great Disappointment, and the influence of Ellen White as a prophetic figure who shaped the modern SDA, and developed doctrines like the Investigative Judgement to soothe those who were upset about the lack of a second coming when George Miller predicted it. Of course those people had not read the phrase “no man knows the hour” and Ellen White had; she also to her credit made the SDA a Trinitarian church, whereas before her many Adventists or Millerites were neo-Arians who denied the Trinity and the deity and consubtantiality of Christ with the Father.

Here we go with EGW again. You and a few others like to talk about this. Is it because you have no scripture to support your view?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Baloney. "You wrote Not really dear friend. There is no scripture for a change in the dietary laws of Leviticus 11:1-47 and Deuteronomy 14:1-29. Even in Acts of the Apostles 15:20 it tells new gentile believers not to eat meat with the blood in it right?"

I answered that by pointing out that all meat from animals with a heart has blood. So Acts 15:20 and 29 has nothing to do with eating meat that has blood (because that would be all meant including fish) but rather meant liquid blood.

Nonsense. Then I asked you if you know what kosher is and if you still eat red meat? You do know why the meat is red right? You still did not answer.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I didn't understand what you're getting at, or why for that matter. So lay it on me already.

Kosher meat is clean meats that have been treated to have the blood removed (see here). Acts 15 tells Gentiles not to eat meat with the blood in it this is from the old testament dietary laws (scripture already provided earlier from Deuteronomy).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

And likewise, as is made clear by reading the New Testament, the New Covenant only requires gentiles to abstain from food offered to idols, things strangled, and consuming blood (the J/Ws have killed many of their members by misinterpreting that last bit as banning blood transfusion, but if there is one thing everyone in this thread should agree on, its that the J/Ws and Christian Science are evil cults; the J/Ws in particular make an extraordinary income, by exploiting the poorest and most vulnerable people in America; J/W members have the lowest per capita income of any major religion in the US; Unitarians have the highest, but this is due to “Old Money” Unitarians in Boston and elsewhere in New England descended from the Yankee settlers).

Not really dear friend. There is no scripture for a change in the dietary laws of Leviticus 11:1-47 and Deuteronomy 14:1-29. Even in Acts of the Apostles 15:20 it tells new gentile believers not to eat meat with the blood in it right? Where do you think that law comes from *Deuteronomy 12:16? Do you eat red meat? If so why is the meat red? - Yep it has blood in it. So are you disregarding the scriptures and God's food laws? I have already pointed out that the bible as my source of time and evidence.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Ethiopian Church is very old, but the country practiced Judaism before converting to Orthodox Christianity, and the Oriental Orthodox Church of which the Patriarchate of Ethiopia is a part ears pork, in particular, the Copts eat pork, and the Ethiopians regard the ancient Coptic monasteries like St. Anthony’s as being among the holiest places, and even in the US, if you visit the new St. Anthony’s in Newberry Springs, California, you will frequently meet white robed Ethiopians. Who do bring their own food, which it is a good idea to eat, because the monks at St. Anthony's basically eat lentil beans, mustard, and cheese during all fasting seasons. But they will eat Pork during non-fasting seasons, and yet the Ethiopians who make pilgrimages to them do not.

The Ethiopian Church, as I mentioned in the thread on the Sabbath, also regard as sacred scripture, as part of the New Testament canon, the Didascalia, a book of church order similar to the Didache which commands worship on Sunday. They also accept 1 Enoch as canon, and several other books which are not among the deuterocanonical books used by the other OO churches, the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics or the Anglicans.

No, the Jews were in every country. The country did not practice Judaism.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Amen I’ve seen this happen so many times and it is extremely common among Christians today. Too many people reject what the scriptures actually say in order to keep their doctrines intact. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard someone say that in John 15:2 the branches that were cut off were not really in Christ when Jesus specifically said that they were.

Not at all dear friend. You have only been provided scripture. Yet it seems you do not believe them.