Adam's Flesh Could Not Be Saved

fhansen

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I don't expect those who don't understand what happened in that old world when Satan first rebelled to understand this present world since Adam that flesh was designed for. It represents a state of 'corruption', like Apostle Paul taught. Much of our sin is 'caused' by our flesh body's desires and lusts, even as Paul showed at the end of Romans 7 that he served the "law of sin" in his flesh, but the law of God in his inner man (i.e., spirit-soul).

It's an old tradition of the Jews that think we must have a flesh body in order for our soul to manifest. Lord Jesus showed that isn't so in Matthew 10:28 and in Luke 16 with Lazarus and the rich man in Paradise, and also about the malefactor in Paradise with Him, and even about the "spirits in prison" which He went to hell and preached The Gospel to, and led out those who believed.

I well know some traditions of men today believe anything mention of the word 'spirit' in The Bible applies to an evil disembodied spirit, but that is a tradition of men, and not correct per Bible Scripture.
The "law of sin" is not innate to our bodies. And we also don't possess a "sin nature" before or after the Fall. The problem with fallen man is that he's separated from God, from belief in Him, even, let alone subjugation to Him. This is the state sometimes referred to as "original sin", a state realized for all humanity by Adam by his act of disobedience. Once that rift, that separation, was done, all other sin that followed in human history was inevitable. Man had now become lawless in any real sense, following his own 'law" doing whatever was right in his own eyes, becoming his own "god" so to speak. He had lost the self-mastery that was part and parcel of the way he was created, in union with God and subjugated to God.

We begin to regain that control, as we're now enabled by the Spirit, once we enter relationship with God via faith. But the struggle against sin, against the "concupiscence" that seeks to draw us all into sin, isn't over. We're still tempted by the same question that Adam had, "Would life be better without God, would I be better, happier, more fulfilled, satisfied, whatever?" The more we know God the more this question is answered, and the more we love Him as well which then increasingly excludes sin as He because our first love, above all else. And, incidentally, to the degree that we love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength our justice or righteousness would be complete, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. All of this is possible only via grace, within that communion established by faith IOW. However, weak as we are this is probably not fully achievable until the next life, when we meet Him "face to face".
 
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The Liturgist

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Sorry, but Job 19:26 must agree with Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:42-54, and Paul makes it plain that the resurrection is not to another flesh body. Even Lord Jesus made that plain, and I believe Him instead of man...

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

KJV

So now you're trying to tell me that my Lord Jesus messed up and got His information about that wrong??? Yeah, sure... right!

No, I am trying to tell you that you messed up and put words in our savior’s mouth. Nowhere in Matthew 22:30 does he deny the bodily resurrection. He merely states that in our resurrected flesh, we will not be sexual.

And with regards to 1 Corinthians 15 and Job 19, it appears you are saying that you are rejecting the obvious interpretation of Job 19 because it clashes with your interpretation of St. Paul. But this is not how we do exegesis. If Job 19 contradicts your interpretation of St. Paul, and of our Lord as recorded by St. Matthew, then you have made an error. And Job 19 makes it very clear that we will be raised incorruptible, and in our flesh see God. First, here is the Authorized Version (KJV):


25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter dayupon the earth:

26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The KJV Old Testament is translated from the Hebrew Textus Receptus, which is sourced from the 9th century Masoretic Text, and was cross checked against the Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate, which were also translated from pre-Masoretic Hebrew texts. However, 200 years before Christ, a group of 70 Jewish scholars translated the Tanakh into Greek, a translation called the Septuagint, or referred to by the Roman numeral LXX, and while very similiar to the later Hebrew text, this earlier Greek translation, which has been validated by the discovery of corresponding variant Hebrew texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls, is often more intense and contains more obvious Christological prophecy, so I make a point to always check the Septuagint when studying the Old Testament.

Here are the same verses, Job 19:25-27, from the LXX:

25For I know that he is eternal who is about to deliver me,

26and to raise up upon the earth my skin that endures these sufferings: for these things have been accomplished to me of the Lord;

27which I am conscious of in myself, which mine eye has seen, and not another, but all have been fulfilled to me in my bosom.

Thus, we can say, based on both the Masoretic and Septuagint, that Job 19 is clearly promising a bodily resurrection. And we are not reading Job in isolation; there are many more texts in the Old Testament, in Ezekiel for example, which support and even, in the case of Ezekiel, depict, the resurrection of the Body. And there is also Jesus eating fish in the Gospel of Luke, which requires a body, and being touched physically by Thomas.

This makes it plain that you have misread Paul, and the words of our Savior, and your quasi-Docetic error is by the way one that was refuted in the First Century, and indeed, is even referenced by St. John the Apostle in his Epistles (Cerinthus was the leader of the Docetic sect).

And this takes us to the main thrust of the argument poignantly raised by @ViaCrucis , that being why should we accept your novel doctrine instead of that which has been believed by all Christians everywhere for the past 2,000 years? What makes you right, and everyone else wrong?

And by everyone else, I mean everyone, from Irenaeus of Lyons, to Athanasius, to Thomas Aquinas, to Martin Luther, to John Calvin, to John Wesley, and to the leading theologians of all major churches of the past century, including but not limited to Karl Barth, John Zizoulas, NT Wright, CS Lewis, Thomas Merton, Fr. John Behr, RC Sproul, Albert Mohler, Rev. Billy Graham, and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, to name just a few.
 
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zoidar

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Sorry, but Job 19:26 must agree with Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:42-54, and Paul makes it plain that the resurrection is not to another flesh body. Even Lord Jesus made that plain, and I believe Him instead of man...

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

KJV

So now you're trying to tell me that my Lord Jesus messed up and got His information about that wrong??? Yeah, sure... right!

"are as angels" can mean many different things. Be without a sinful body is one of them. There is not that much description of heaven in the Bible. We won't marry, but it will be more like we are all married to Jesus. Exacly how, we don't know. We will be one big family.
 
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Philip_B

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Sorry, but God's Own outward likeness is that of a man
In the beginning God created man in His own image, and man has been trying to repay the favor ever since.
Voltaire
 
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Philip_B

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All that sounds so nice, but it isn't Biblical
The doctrine of the Incarnation is entirely Biblical. John 1:1-18 and most especially John 1:14.
 
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The Liturgist

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The doctrine of the Incarnation is entirely Biblical. John 1:1-18 and most especially John 1:14.

There is also text supporting it in all three Synoptic Gospels.
 
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mmksparbud

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LOL!! What do you think this means??

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus was raised from the dead with a glorified human body---same as we will have when Jesus returns and resurrects us. We will inherit human bodies free from mortal sin, the same flesh that Adam and Eve had before they sinned. Jesus keeps His humanity for eternity, as well as His divinity. He bears the scars of the crucifixion forever---it is those scars that will keep us from ever sinning again. Out of love for Him, not out of fear of hell.
 
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zoidar

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His flesh was transfigured to the Heavenly. Read and heed 1 Corinthians 15:45-50...

1 Cor 15:45-50
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

KJV

I think God created us with physical bodies for a reason. What would be the reason if there won't be a physical resurrection?
 
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Clare73

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Since when are angels disembodied spirits???

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

KJV
Ever seen the body of your Guardian Angel (Mt 18:10; Heb 1:14)?
 
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prodromos

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It appears some brethren on the forum need a Bible lesson on the fact that Jesus did not come to save our flesh
It appears that one brother needs to humble himself and admit that he is mistaken.
 
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Jamdoc

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Show me where. I dare you.

If you mean Lazarus and others, they were brought back to mortal life on earth, like Jesus at the resurrection, but then He was transformed into immortality and ascended into heaven. This is what we are talking about. Immortal life, in heaven, which is our final resting place.

Even the earth will pass away in time, but not the immortal.
.

I quoted it earlier, Luke 24
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Also John 20
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Your doctrine is false. Our eternal home is on a New Earth. Not heaven. Man was meant for Earth as God created him to have dominion of the Earth and God has never given up on that plan.
The ultimate plan is for there to be a New Earth, and God will live with us on Earth

Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Flesh is not inherently sinful, it was our spirit that was dead and needed to be regenerated, and that sin that killed our spirit corrupted our flesh but flesh itself before that corruption is not inherently sinful. Animals are flesh, animals do not sin, and most importantly, Jesus came in the flesh.

1 John 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

So you may want to reevaluate your doctrines if you believe that flesh is inherently sinful, because Jesus came in the flesh and never sinned.
 
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DamianWarS

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Since when are angels disembodied spirits???

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

KJV
This doesn't answer the question. Mat 22:30 is framed in the context of marriage after resurrection and the answer should be understood in the same context of marriage not flesh. We won't be converted into angels so there will be distinguishing features but apparently we will be like angels as it applies to marriage. Christ resurrected and amongst many witnesses ascended into heaven in the resurrected flesh. Are you saying Christ is not with that flesh?
 
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Really if you think about it, this kind of gnostic teaching is exactly what John was calling the spirit of antichrist in 1 John 4.

Indeed, that is exactly so.
 
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1an

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I quoted it earlier, Luke 24


Also John 20


Your doctrine is false. Our eternal home is on a New Earth. Not heaven. Man was meant for Earth as God created him to have dominion of the Earth and God has never given up on that plan.
The ultimate plan is for there to be a New Earth, and God will live with us on Earth

Revelation 21


Flesh is not inherently sinful, it was our spirit that was dead and needed to be regenerated, and that sin that killed our spirit corrupted our flesh but flesh itself before that corruption is not inherently sinful. Animals are flesh, animals do not sin, and most importantly, Jesus came in the flesh.

1 John 4


So you may want to reevaluate your doctrines if you believe that flesh is inherently sinful, because Jesus came in the flesh and never sinned.
God is Spirit, and to be present with God is to be in heaven.

That is all I am saying on the subject.
.
 
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prodromos

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God is Spirit, and to be present with God is to be in heaven.

That is all I am saying on the subject.
.
God is omnipresent. There is nowhere that God isn't.
 
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Jamdoc

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God is Spirit, and to be present with God is to be in heaven.

That is all I am saying on the subject.
.

Temporarily yes, but we don't stay in heaven forever, our real home is a New Earth that is redeemed without sin and death, and God will live with us.
God is spirit but He also has a body, all the times he refers to things by His body parts, words that proceed from His mouth, the works of His hands. The kind of body that He has now we will have someday after we are resurrected or raptured. It's not exactly the same as our current body, but it is familiar in the way that it is shaped and looks, and it will be capable of interacting with physical objects and doing physical things like being touched and eating and drinking.

Personally I don't know why gnostics don't want to have a body and just want to exist forever as a disincorporated spirit. No body to hug someone you love with, no body to dance for joy in the Lord with, no body to share a meal in fellowship with the body of Christ with, a nebulous abstract existence. That is not what we were designed for.
 
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