Are Women Allowed To Be Pastors?

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Major1

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Expressions of anger and accusations are the way to get people to listen to you? Literally no one teaches that as a strategy for teaching. Do you speak to your wife the way you are speaking to us here?

This is your version of nice? Yelling? What are you like when you’re not nice?

I am not angry and have made no accusations. Computer "lingo" is not something I aspire to nor have I ever made Political Correctness a thing I work at.

My wife died several years ago.

Is a lack of compassion something you have learned and is it then better than what you have accused me of?
 
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bekkilyn

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What is "killing" the church and Christianity in general is exactly the picture you are drawing.

The refusal to "read" and accept the Word of God as it is written to men from God.

That is the failure and down fall of the Christian faith today.

Asking for a better and clearer and more accurate lens through which to read scripture is not the same as refusing to read scripture and is not the downfall of Christianity. People aren't at all arguing against scripture, but against the broken lens that has been used to come to harmful conclusions that contradict the message of the gospel.

If you go outside of the Christian bubble and actually talk to non-Christians and former Christians, you will get an earful of reasons why they aren't returning, and those reasons include the rigid legalism of those who use the bible to promote evil rather than good.
 
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Major1

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So now you have decided that "unmarried" really means "unproven"? So if "unmarried" really means "unproven" and Paul is telling them that it is best to be "unmarried" (i.e. unproven) like himself, then it would mean that Paul is also unproven, and that makes absolutely no sense in the context of scripture outside of the fable that you've concocted for this small segment.

And even after this fable is complete, Paul still wasn't the husband of one wife himself, so one has to wonder if his letters really should have been included as scripture since he was so obviously claiming authority he didn't possess according to his own supposed restrictions.

Wow, it's amazing the lengths people will go in their efforts to obstruct women from pursuing their God-given callings.

Since you brought it up, Why not do some real deep Bible study on this subject and begin with ......

1 Corinthians 7:8
"To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am.

If we want to understand how this verse applies to us, we need first of all to whom it is addressed. Your English versions say that Paul addresses “the unmarried and the widows.”

It’s clear what Paul means by “widows.” He’s referring to any woman who was once married but whose husband has died. But to whom is Paul referring when he says “the unmarried”?

Some readers interpret the “unmarried” generically as anyone who happens to be unmarried, regardless of how they got into that situation (e.g., Ciampa and Rosner).

For this reason, they think that the “unmarried” would include both the widowed, the divorced and those who have never been married. On this view, Paul means to address all Christians who happen to be unmarried.

However, if we do the work required I think we can see that Paul’s reference to the unmarried refers to widowers specifically. There are a number of reasons for this.

1.
Not the least of which is the fact that the Greek word for “widower” was rarely used in ancient Greek and was never used in the Koine period (Fee).

2.
For some reason, first-century speakers did not use the word “widower.” The reason is that they didn’t use it because of the negative social connotation attached to the term. In the first century, a widow was not only bereft of her husband, she was also often destitute. It was a patriarchal culture, and to be without a husband was to be in an extremely vulnerable position. That vulnerability is why the “widows” and “orphans” are often paired together in the Bible (e.g., James 1:27). In a patriarchal culture where there’s no social security safety net, widows and orphans are extremely socially disadvantaged.

3.
A husband who lost his wife in that culture did not experience the same social hardship that a widow did. A widow is unmarried and destitute. But a man who loses his wife is simply unmarried. He is not destitute. And I suspect that is why Paul and other Greek writers didn’t use the term widower to refer to such men. They were simply “unmarried.”
 
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Major1

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Asking for a better and clearer and more accurate lens through which to read scripture is not the same as refusing to read scripture and is not the downfall of Christianity. People aren't at all arguing against scripture, but against the broken lens that has been used to come to harmful conclusions that contradict the message of the gospel.

If you go outside of the Christian bubble and actually talk to non-Christians and former Christians, you will get an earful of reasons why they aren't returning, and those reasons include the rigid legalism of those who use the bible to promote evil rather than good.

There is no better lens or more accurate lens than is the actual, literal Words of Scripture. When those words are questioned, or talked away and rejected, then comes into the mind doctrines of demons.

1 Tim. 4:1.......
“The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons”.

I talk to non-Christians almost daily. There is no such thing as a "Former Christian" my friend.

Matthew 7:21-23.........
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

1 John 2:19........
"“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
 
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Major1

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So you are sticking by your guns that Jesus, "the Good Pastor," would not be qualified to be an elder in his own church. I commend you for your consistency, but I think that's a silly conclusion.

Jesus could not be the Pastor of a Church because He was not a Politically Correct speaker.

He spoke only the truth and if you did not like.....too bad, see you at judgment day.

John 6:60
"On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

John 6:66 .....
"From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
 
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bekkilyn

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There is no better lens or more accurate lens than is the actual, literal Words of Scripture. When those words are questioned, or talked away and rejected, then comes into the mind doctrines of demons.

And this is why we can't have a meaningful conversation on this topic because you don't understand that we are ALL looking at scripture through a lens, and a cloudy one at best...even yourself. If we're not starting with even that basic assumption, then we only continue to talk past one another.

You have this assumption that we haven't seen all of these verses before and haven't studied them in depth and even had similar opinions to yours over 20 to 30 years ago, but over the course of time and study and help from the Holy Spirit, have gained a new and better understanding.
 
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bekkilyn

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There is no better lens or more accurate lens than is the actual, literal Words of Scripture. When those words are questioned, or talked away and rejected, then comes into the mind doctrines of demons.

1 Tim. 4:1.......
“The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons”.

I talk to non-Christians almost daily. There is no such thing as a "Former Christian" my friend.

Matthew 7:21-23.........
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

1 John 2:19........
"“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

Do you LISTEN to them, or do you just talk AT them?
 
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Gregorikos

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Jesus could not be the Pastor of a Church because He was not a Politically Correct speaker.

He spoke only the truth and if you did not like.....too bad, see you at judgment day.

John 6:60
"On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

John 6:66 .....
"From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

You're the guy who said, "There is no better lens or more accurate lens than is the actual, literal Words of Scripture."

And then you say the above, based not at all on Scripture, but on the practices of lukewarm churches. Who really cares what lukewarm churches do?
 
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Sparagmos

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I am not angry and have made no accusations. Computer "lingo" is not something I aspire to nor have I ever made Political Correctness a thing I work at.

My wife died several years ago.

Is a lack of compassion something you have learned and is it then better than what you have accused me of?
Your posts come across as angry. I do t know what computer lingo has to do with any of this.

It sounds like you’re saying I lack compassion. Why is that?
 
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Major1

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Your posts come across as angry. I do t know what computer lingo has to do with any of this.

It sounds like you’re saying I lack compassion. Why is that?

You said you would like to talk to my wife and ask her how I spoke to her.

I told you that she died several years ago. Does that require an explanation?

Maybe you are just wanting to to hear what you want to hear because you are rejecting the Word of God.

When anyone speaks about the words of written Scripture they will always bring the person reading them or hearing them one of two feelings......"Mad" or "Glad".

It seems that your perception is anger at what is said and there is nothing I can do for you.

Here is an idea though......use the "Ignore" option and we can be good friends.
 
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Major1

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You're the guy who said, "There is no better lens or more accurate lens than is the actual, literal Words of Scripture."

And then you say the above, based not at all on Scripture, but on the practices of lukewarm churches. Who really cares what lukewarm churches do?

It is clear from your responses that your agenda is to do nothing but argue and be contentious.

The Scriptures from the Gospel of John and from 1 John were the literal words and were not directed at a church but instead to "individuals" who claimed to be something that they were not.

They were not about "lukewarm" churches at all. There context was not hard to understand as Jesus Himself said that those who claimed to be Christians were that in name only and He never knew them and 1 John says the very same thing.

Now notice this as you seemed to have missed it.......no one can be 'lukewarm" if they have never been saved to begin with.

The people Jesus and John identified were never saved to begin with so they could not be lukewarm at all.
 
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Sparagmos

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You said you would like to talk to my wife and ask her how I spoke to her.
I didn’t ask to talk to your wife. I asked you if you spoke to her the way you were speaking here.

I told you that she died several years ago. Does that require an explanation?
If this is your reason for thinking I lack compassion I’m confused. I didn’t know your wife had passed until you stated it, in the same post that questioned my compassion. I don’t know that when I asked about her.

It seems that your perception is anger at what is said and there is nothing I can do for you.

Here is an idea though......use the "Ignore" option and we can be good friends.
Well, since I mentioned your tone in these posts you seem to have calmed down a bit so maybe there’s some understanding happening?
 
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atpollard

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So you are sticking by your guns that Jesus, "the Good Pastor," would not be qualified to be an elder in his own church. I commend you for your consistency, but I think that's a silly conclusion.
What church was Jesus an elder in?
I am sticking by my guns that the question is as irrelevant as asking if Jesus was qualified to be a Levitical High Priest. Only YOU think it matters.
 
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Gregorikos

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It is clear from your responses that your agenda is to do nothing but argue and be contentious.

The Scriptures from the Gospel of John and from 1 John were the literal words and were not directed at a church but instead to "individuals" who claimed to be something that they were not.

They were not about "lukewarm" churches at all. There context was not hard to understand as Jesus Himself said that those who claimed to be Christians were that in name only and He never knew them and 1 John says the very same thing.

Now notice this as you seemed to have missed it.......no one can be 'lukewarm" if they have never been saved to begin with.

The people Jesus and John identified were never saved to begin with so they could not be lukewarm at all.

I'm just trying to make sense of your logic, and I am failing. How is it that you are reasoning from the above that Jesus could not be a pastor?
 
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Gregorikos

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What church was Jesus an elder in?
I am sticking by my guns that the question is as irrelevant as asking if Jesus was qualified to be a Levitical High Priest. Only YOU think it matters.

All of them.

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25 (KJV)
 
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ChristServant

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It is not my intention to cause an argument or division among the faithful with that question just discussion in a Christian and civil manner.

I have always simply posted the Word of God as it is written. I post this question in order to properly attempt to teach the Word of God....PEROID!

1 Timothy 3:1-2.........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

According to the written Word of God, a Pastor can only be a "Male/Man".

Now, before anyone argues that point or disagree with me, remember that the "One" who said..."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" also was the "One" who said......
"if a "MAN" desire the office of a bishop".

The old Major did not have anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus Christ placed into the Word of God. The old Major just reads it and accepts it as it is written so your disagreements will be with Christ and not me!!!!

Now the question must be WHY would God do that?

1 Timothy 2:13-14 .....
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

It’s important to understand that Paul does not prohibit women from teaching in all contexts (Titus 2:3; Acts 18:25-26), only from teaching the Bible to men in the church.

Notice that Paul prohibits women from doing two distinct things.

1.
Women may not teach the Bible to men in the church.
2.
Women may not exercise authority over men in the church.

Teaching and exercising authority in the church are the two primary responsibilities of elders, pastors, or bishops. Thus, women are not to hold the office of pastor, but neither are they to perform these particular functions of a pastor over men in the church.

Again, for the inquisitive minds the question is still...WHY is that the case.

I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.

1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church
.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.

2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church
.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).


I also believe women according to scripture do not have the authority to teach the Bible to men in the church or
exercise authority over men in the church.

The problem comes from rebellious men and women who think they know better than GOD's word and are always trying to force their worldly wisdom into all areas of Christianity instead of the wisdom given from above.

We see the breakdown in all areas of Christian life because of these rebellious individuals with all their so called knowledge but they all lack understanding. These individuals put all their trust in their foolish limited knowledge and forsake GOD's word because they think they know better than GOD.

Peace be to all those who are in Christ
 
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Major1

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I also believe women according to scripture do not have the authority to teach the Bible to men in the church or
exercise authority over men in the church.

The problem comes from rebellious men and women who think they know better than GOD's word and are always trying to force their worldly wisdom into all areas of Christianity instead of the wisdom given from above.

We see the breakdown in all areas of Christian life because of these rebellious individuals with all their so called knowledge but they all lack understanding. These individuals put all their trust in their foolish limited knowledge and forsake GOD's word because they think they know better than GOD.

Peace be to all those who are in Christ

You are 100% correct my friend.
 
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Gregorikos

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I also believe women according to scripture do not have the authority to teach the Bible to men in the church or exercise authority over men in the church.

The problem there is you have exactly one verse of Scripture for your belief, with multiple possibilities of interpretation. And based on your interpretation of that one verse, 1 Timothy 2:12, you would disqualify over 50% of the church from reaching their potential before God. That in the face of all of Paul's female coworkers in the New Testament.

Nympha was a house church leader. (Col 4:15) Prisca is another (Romans 16:3-5 and 1 Cor 16:19) Apphia (Philem 1:2) Lydia, probably Chloe as well (1 Cor 1:11) and most likely the elect lady addressee of 2 John (kuria) were all church leaders.

Your argument doesn't stand up.
 
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bekkilyn

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And not one of those things preclude Jesus from being a pastor. Jesus said himself that he was a pastor. (John 11:11)

I'm kind of amused at the fact that people are even restricting God himself from being a pastor. I'm also kind of wondering how they plan to enforce it though, or perhaps just ranting at God that he's being rebellious with his so-called knowledge and will be sorry when judgment comes is enough to strike terror into his heart? :)
 
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