Are Women Allowed To Be Pastors?

[Major1]

Except that it's what you've been arguing since you've started participating in this thread.

That is your perception. Reality is very different.

 

[bekkilyn]

That is your perception. Reality is very different.

You might learn something from what you just said.

 

[Paidiske]

I believe what you are saying is called "rationalization".

Of course you do. If you took my argument seriously, you might have to rethink your own position.

I have said from the start that women should be involved in the Christian ministry is all phases except the role of Pastor as by it very nature it places the woman in authority over all the men in a particular church.

I really do think much of this argument hinges on perceptions of power, authority and control. For myself, as a priest in charge of a parish, I would say that the authority I exercise not my personal authority, but the authority of the church as a whole, to which I submit as much as (and in many cases far more than) any of the folk in my congregation.

That is what the Scriptures say literally and I accept them as needing to be followed.

I can not find any place in the New Testament where it states that by its very nature, the role of pastor places the pastor in authority over all the people in a particular church. Your position seems to me not to be a reflection of what any Scripture says literally, but a construction which goes far beyond what the Scriptures say.

No matter what some people have said here, I am not the enemy!

You, personally, may not be the enemy. But by fighting to exclude women from exercising their God-given gifts and vocations, your position is certainly one which I find dangerous to leave unchallenged. I am not prepared to stand by and see women degraded in that way.

 

[Major1]

The problem is that you are picking and choosing what scripture says literally, or else you must agree that the apostle Paul is not qualified to be a pastor and Roman Catholic priests are living in rebellion.

Again, that is just not the case at all.

As I have already posted to you .....it has been well established go all the way back to 1550 when Luther argued that Paul was a "Widower".

The facts are that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin and that sect required all members to be married men.

William Barclay in his explanations of the Scriptures writes in his commentary on the Corinthian letters, for example, “It was a requirement that members of the Sanhedrin must be married men, because it was held that married men were more merciful.”

Acts 26:10 said that he cast his vote (usually a colored stone) to condemn Xian Jews to death by stoning. This formal vote by Paul in Jerusalem where Paul was living, would have been reserved to the Sanhedrin that met regularly in that city.

You have been erroneously stating a thesis that does not hunt. You might want to find another angle.

 

[Major1]

Of course you do. If you took my argument seriously, you might have to rethink your own position.



I really do think much of this argument hinges on perceptions of power, authority and control. For myself, as a priest in charge of a parish, I would say that the authority I exercise not my personal authority, but the authority of the church as a whole, to which I submit as much as (and in many cases far more than) any of the folk in my congregation.



I can not find any place in the New Testament where it states that by its very nature, the role of pastor places the pastor in authority over all the people in a particular church. Your position seems to me not to be a reflection of what any Scripture says literally, but a construction which goes far beyond what the Scriptures say.



You, personally, may not be the enemy. But by fighting to exclude women from exercising their God-given gifts and vocations, your position is certainly one which I find dangerous to leave unchallenged. I am not prepared to stand by and see women degraded in that way.

Again.....when in this world did posting words from the Scriptures come to the point where the one posting them is degrading women?????

How is that possible?

How can a person be called to a "God given vocation (and since we are talking about women pastors), when can that happen when the Scriptures, not me, the Scriptures say that a "man" is the one that being a Pastor is limited to, again the Scriptures not me say it is because a woman can not assume the authority over the man.

If that is not to be taken literally how then is it to be taken?
Figuratively?
Allegorically"
Futuristically?
Symbolocally?

The only method that makes any sense at all is to accept the words as they are written.

 

[Major1]

Of course you do. If you took my argument seriously, you might have to rethink your own position.



I really do think much of this argument hinges on perceptions of power, authority and control. For myself, as a priest in charge of a parish, I would say that the authority I exercise not my personal authority, but the authority of the church as a whole, to which I submit as much as (and in many cases far more than) any of the folk in my congregation.



I can not find any place in the New Testament where it states that by its very nature, the role of pastor places the pastor in authority over all the people in a particular church. Your position seems to me not to be a reflection of what any Scripture says literally, but a construction which goes far beyond what the Scriptures say.



You, personally, may not be the enemy. But by fighting to exclude women from exercising their God-given gifts and vocations, your position is certainly one which I find dangerous to leave unchallenged. I am not prepared to stand by and see women degraded in that way.

So, you do not know of any Scriptures that gives Pastors authority of the church.

Heres one.......
1 Peter 5:2–3 (ESV)
"shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock."

Heres' another...
Titus 1:9 (ESV)
"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it

Then there is Hebrews 13:17...
" Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you."

1 Thess. 5:12
"And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;".

Acts 20:28........
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

If you need more, let me know.

 

[Gregorikos]

If it was only one passage, that would be enough for me.

I'm sure that is true, because you can't be bothered to rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[Major1]

Of course you do. If you took my argument seriously, you might have to rethink your own position.



I really do think much of this argument hinges on perceptions of power, authority and control. For myself, as a priest in charge of a parish, I would say that the authority I exercise not my personal authority, but the authority of the church as a whole, to which I submit as much as (and in many cases far more than) any of the folk in my congregation.



I can not find any place in the New Testament where it states that by its very nature, the role of pastor places the pastor in authority over all the people in a particular church. Your position seems to me not to be a reflection of what any Scripture says literally, but a construction which goes far beyond what the Scriptures say.



You, personally, may not be the enemy. But by fighting to exclude women from exercising their God-given gifts and vocations, your position is certainly one which I find dangerous to leave unchallenged. I am not prepared to stand by and see women degraded in that way.

You said and I quote........
" Your position seems to me not to be a reflection of what any Scripture says literally, but a construction which goes far beyond what the Scriptures say."

Please post the number of the post "Specifically" where I did that.

I would like to read it and respond to that specific post and correct it for you.

 

[Major1]

I'm sure that is true, because you can't be bothered to rightly divide the word of truth.

Really?

Then post the specific post number so that it can be discussed and corrected if need be.

Thanks.

 

[Major1]

I'm sure that is true, because you can't be bothered to rightly divide the word of truth.

OOOps.

 

[Gregorikos]

Really?

Then post the specific post number so that it can be discussed and corrected if need be.

Thanks.

Post 275. Not one of the scriptures you posted says a woman can't be a pastor. We've already been over this.

 

[bekkilyn]

Again, that is just not the case at all.

As I have already posted to you .....it has been well established go all the way back to 1550 when Luther argued that Paul was a "Widower".

The facts are that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin and that sect required all members to be married men.

William Barclay in his explanations of the Scriptures writes in his commentary on the Corinthian letters, for example, “It was a requirement that members of the Sanhedrin must be married men, because it was held that married men were more merciful.”

Acts 26:10 said that he cast his vote (usually a colored stone) to condemn Xian Jews to death by stoning. This formal vote by Paul in Jerusalem where Paul was living, would have been reserved to the Sanhedrin that met regularly in that city.

You have been erroneously stating a thesis that does not hunt. You might want to find another angel.

Who cares if Paul is a widower, a divorcee, or a lifetime celibate? It makes no difference because during that time in his life, he did not have a wife. By your own rigid standards of biblical law and literalism, it would be impossible for the apostle Paul to qualify as a pastor. He absolutely with no exception *must* be the husband of one wife, and that's an impossibility if he doesn't have a wife. Zero does not equal one.

There is no documentation, scriptural or otherwise, that confirms that Paul was a member of the sanhedrin. William Barclay making a conjecture is not the same as actual evidence, and Paul never once made such a claim himself throughout all of his letters. He did however make a very literal claim of being unmarried, so if we are going to rigidly take *scripture* (not biblical commentaries) literally, then Paul is not qualified to be a pastor by your own restrictions.

Paul was also described as a young man at the time of Stephen's stoning so his age would have disqualified him to be a card-carrying member. It would be more likely he was acting in service to them vs. being an actual member.

Also, there is no indication that he was casting a formal vote for the court vs. the mob that wanted to put Stephen to death, so all we have here is conjecture as well, and since we're not talking conjecture here but in "the bible clearly says" literalism, we have a whole lot of problems qualifying practically anyone as a pastor.

In any case, by the time Paul is writing his letters, there are no wives to be found, which very literally makes him unqualified for the role of a pastor by your restrictions.

 

[bekkilyn]

Again.....when in this world did posting words from the Scriptures come to the point where the one posting them is degrading women?????

How is that possible?

How can a person be called to a "God given vocation (and since we are talking about women pastors), when can that happen when the Scriptures, not me, the Scriptures say that a "man" is the one that being a Pastor is limited to, again the Scriptures not me say it is because a woman can not assume the authority over the man.

If that is not to be taken literally how then is it to be taken?
Figuratively?
Allegorically"
Futuristically?
Symbolocally?

The only method that makes any sense at all is to accept the words as they are written.

Except that you yourself don't even do what you demand that others do.

 

[Paidiske]

Again.....when in this world did posting words from the Scriptures come to the point where the one posting them is degrading women?????

If you use Scriptures to limit, control, repress and quench women, then that's degrading.

How can a person be called to a "God given vocation (and since we are talking about women pastors), when can that happen when the Scriptures, not me, the Scriptures say that a "man" is the one that being a Pastor is limited to, again the Scriptures not me say it is because a woman can not assume the authority over the man.

The Scriptures don't say that a woman can't be a pastor. The Scriptures don't say that women can't exercise legitimate authority over men. It's not "authority" in the healthy sense that is excluded, but a domineering, controlling authority; that is the literal meaning of authentein.

The only method that makes any sense at all is to accept the words as they are written.

And yet when it comes to Scriptures you don't like - such as the passages which say Phoebe was a deacon and Junia an apostle, how quickly you back away from accepting the words as they are written!

So, you do not know of any Scriptures that gives Pastors authority of the church.

Heres one.......
1 Peter 5:2–3 (ESV)
"shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock."

Heres' another...
Titus 1:9 (ESV)
"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it

Then there is Hebrews 13:17...
" Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you."

1 Thess. 5:12
"And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;".

Acts 20:28........
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

If you need more, let me know.

You said: "the role of Pastor as by it very nature it places the woman in authority over all the men in a particular church."

And I am saying that nowhere does Scripture say exactly what you have said there. And nor do any of the passages you have just quoted.

Just for a start, that passage in 1 Peter 5:2-3 is addressed to the elders, and suggests that authority is exercised collegially rather than individually. Which would immediately prevent any one person - woman or man - from exercising authority over all the men in a particular church. (And leaves open the question of whether we see a distinction between elders and pastors, but that's enough to show that your statement is not a literal rendering from Scripture but your own weaving of various Scriptural threads).

You said and I quote........
" Your position seems to me not to be a reflection of what any Scripture says literally, but a construction which goes far beyond what the Scriptures say."

Please post the number of the post "Specifically" where I did that.

I have just addressed that above. I was referring to post #298.

 

[atpollard]

It's right there in the verse I cited, John 11:11. You are confused because you don't know that "pastor" is the Latin word for "shepherd."

Please quote John 11:11 from YOUR favorite translation.

[my NASB has [John 11:11] This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." ... with no “Shepherd” or “Pastor” in the passage.]

 

[Gregorikos]

Please quote John 11:11 from YOUR favorite translation.

[my NASB has [John 11:11] This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." ... with no “Shepherd” or “Pastor” in the passage.]

Sorry. John 10:11.

 

[ewq1938]