Doctrinal Origin from Pope Gregory I

Swordman007

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Are you one of these Christians who thinks that he never sins?

No. Are there such people?

None of the verses you quoted conflicts with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. I interpret them differently than you do, obviously.

I think you're correct.

Look, Catholic theologians and apologists have carefully studied all of the arguments against the doctrine of purgatory, the particular verses used, and the theological objections. You can easily find a Catholic response with respect to any verse or argument that you have made, either here in these forums, using "Google" or going to your local library. Protestants have been making the same arguments and using the same verses for 500 years, it's not like Catholics have never thought about them. If you want to know the Catholic response, you can do some work and research them on your own.

I agree. Both sides of any argument have all manner of authorities and scholars to which each side may subscribe. It's a blessing to us all that we're not confined to schisms and not knowing how to find the answers. 1 John 2:27 provides the ULTIMATE source for answers, and in Whom I trust far above any earthly authority on any side of any issue. The Lord didn't leave us to floundering about with no recourse for getting to His thoughts and His ways about any and all teachings.

Or we can continue the debate here endlessly with neither of us changing our opinion, as has been done 10,000 times before in other threads on the same topic.

I didn't think we were debating. I've asked questions, made some observations, pointed out scripture, and spoke of my appeal to the Highest Authority. The journey for truth is a noble one worthy of our most stringent endeavors.
 
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lsume

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I am glad to hear that our Lord and the Holy Spirit have changed your life. So it is the same with me.
My thought is that you have met less than 10 others that you are aware of. You probably have also learned that you can’t share unless Christ has prepared the way. I’m very happy to hear that you now now. Nobody escapes judgement.
 
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LightLoveHope

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Sexual abuse is every-bit of a problem in the Baptist churches as it has been in the Catholic Church. The only difference is that the Catholic Church took steps to end it, while the Baptist churches have done nothing.

There is a simple point here, is celibacy a choice or a condition of the ministers of the church?
Repression of emotional issues makes them more powerful in a persons life, while facing them and balancing out ones approach works.

On the issue of how does various organisations handle sexual issues, I cannot make any judgement, as I know little about it. My point was my position in terms of a healthy balance.

God bless you
 
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Albion

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There is a simple point here, is celibacy a choice or a condition of the ministers of the church?
Repression of emotional issues makes them more powerful in a persons life, while facing them and balancing out ones approach works.

The point you make may initially seem to be wishful thinking or a guess, but the evidence--the actual experiences of the different denominations--appears to verify your point.
 
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Cis.jd

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I'm wondering if there's anyone who can explain the doctrine of purgatory?

Given that the doctrine didn't even exist until Gregory I revealed it in about 593 AD, did purgatory not exist until that time, given that it was completely unknown to christendom before that time, so far as I can find, all the way back to the time of the apostles? I mean, if the apostles knew about it, then why did it not become a central doctrine until 593 AD?

What are the authoritative definitions for that place, and who goes there, and by what criteria?

I realize this has probably been asked many times, but reading through the posts, it appears there was application of all kinds of logical fallacies on both sides of the argument. Can anyone summarize the criteria for that place with a bird's eye view of that criteria without having to read through myriads of ancient literature?

This captured my attention because of the thief on the cross who was told by Jesus that he would be with Jesus in paradise that very day as is recorded in the Greek texts.

I noticed that some claimed the thief had done his suffering on his cross to negate his need for cleansing, while others claimed he had done his indulgence and prayer works for everything before his crucifixion, and the crucifixion itself purged his thefts. It seems like those explanations strain at imagination, with no adherents willing to admit that maybe the doctrine itself is flawed, or downright false, or even originating from one or more of the many religions of Rome at that time. The ancient Greeks and Roman religions spoke of a place in the afterlife called the Asphodel Fields, where dwelled a varied selection of human souls...those whose sins equaled their goodness, were indecisive in their lives, or were not judged. This is very similar to purgatory. The ancient Egyptian and buddhist religions also had a similar place in their belief systems.

So I'm wondering how anyone can so easily make claimed assumptions about that thief without addressing only the known facts. I mean, it seems dangerous for anyone to not desire to test doctrines to see if they can withstand scrutiny rather than accepting it blindly; without question, just because someone in the ancient past claimed it's true who is not among the apostles who lived and walked with Jesus.

The concept and belief of a state or place prior to Heaven and Hell is not a Christian teaching that was invented by Pope Gregory. Even the Jews believed this, and Orthodox as well. It's just the views of what that is actually like that was brought into teaching. Not everything was fully understood or described at full comprehensible capacity during the times of the prophets and apostles where writing, there are some things that just theologically developed.

This belief of limbo is just reasonable faith. Regardless of what Christ did, justice has to be served and it would be just wrong for sins that someone may have towards another person to just get swept under the rug.
 
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Cis.jd

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There is a simple point here, is celibacy a choice or a condition of the ministers of the church?

It was a choice. Mainly to prevent something like Nepotism. Back in the day, Priests where allowed to get married, but I recall reading that some priests had numerous wives. Then there where Priests whose sons eventually inherited their father's position, etc etc.. hence celibacy became a tradition.
 
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Albion

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The concept and belief of a state or place prior to Heaven and Hell is not a Christian teaching that was invented by Pope Gregory.
That's true, but "Swordman" asked about Purgatory specifically.

This belief of limbo is just reasonable faith. Regardless of what Christ did, justice has to be served and it would be just wrong for sins that someone may have towards another person to just get swept under the rug.

What does Limbo have to do with this discussion? It's about Purgatory.
 
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Swag365

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There is a simple point here, is celibacy a choice or a condition of the ministers of the church?
It is not mandated by Scripture or Tradition, if that is what you mean. There have always been married priests within the Catholic Church, although for the last 1000 years or so the celibacy vow has been the norm for clergy. Whether it is a good idea today as a matter of prudence, or if it was a good idea at any point, that is an open question for me personally. I can see good arguments on both sides.

Repression of emotional issues makes them more powerful in a persons life, while facing them and balancing out ones approach works.
Well I don't think its been established that leading a celibate life is a cause of pedophilia. I would need to look at the evidence, but the last time I looked it appeared to me that the rate of improper conduct among celibates was no higher than the general population.

You certainly see some things in Scripture where St. Paul appears to encourage celibacy so I don't think we can say that the choice is categorically wrong. If you think about it, many practicing Christians are celibate for a substantial period, before they are married. Nobody suggests that they are more likely to go out and abuse children, and that they should all marry the day that they turn 18, because to wait will cause them molest children. But that is essentially the same form of argument that you are making. You are just applying the argument to a different class of people (priests).

God bless you
Thanks. May God bless you too.
 
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Swordman007

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The concept and belief of a state or place prior to Heaven and Hell is not a Christian teaching that was invented by Pope Gregory. Even the Jews believed this, and Orthodox as well.

That sounds rather "blanket." Not all Jews believed it, nor do many of them believe it now....either that, or my Jewish friends are lying to me.

It's just the views of what that is actually like that was brought into teaching. Not everything was fully understood or described at full comprehensible capacity during the times of the prophets and apostles where writing, there are some things that just theologically developed.

Theologically developed? That implies the understanding was therefore man-made rather than God-breathed. Is that a correct assessment of what you said?

This belief of limbo is just reasonable faith. Regardless of what Christ did, justice has to be served and it would be just wrong for sins that someone may have towards another person to just get swept under the rug.

I thought Jesus satisfied the justice of our sins and imperfections given that it is written that He became sin FOR us. Where does scripture demand that He did not atone for it all?
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Neither King James or Luther or anyone else has the authority to change God's Word.

Would you include, in writing, the POPE and the RCC in the above statement please. So we know where you stand.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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You have to take Holy Scripture in the both the context of everything said AND specifically what the writer was trying to convey. To someone unfamiliar in approaching the Bible this way there are many passages which upon first glance would appear to contradict other passages. I assure you that when the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible any book that was not 100% in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected. The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church.

I ASKED YOU FOR SCRIPTURE AND YOU DID NOT SUPPLY ANY. YOU DEFLECTED TO THE ABOVE
 
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Swag365

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I ASKED YOU FOR SCRIPTURE AND YOU DID NOT SUPPLY ANY. YOU DEFLECTED TO THE ABOVE
Who cares? Plenty of verses have been provided in this thread. It's not like your opinion is gonna change. She'll give you a verse or two and then you'll object to the use of it. She'll give you another verse and you'll object to that too. You just want to debate endlessly.
 
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Swag365

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Would you include, in writing, the POPE and the RCC in the above statement please. So we know where you stand.
Friend, the pope may add or remove books from the Bible as he pleases. Just the other day he took out Matthew and replaced it with the didache.
 
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Cis.jd

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That's true, but "Swordman" asked about Purgatory specifically.



What does Limbo have to do with this discussion? It's about Purgatory.
Because Purgatory involves the state of limbo or just one of the beliefs that regard the time before Heaven and Hell. It's just what we believe that experience to be like is what our differences are.
The beliefs in regards to the experience is not as important to the actual concept where it is all rooted from. This specific time of person is biblical and that is what Protestants took away and disregard.
 
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Albion

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Who cares? Plenty of verses have been provided in this thread. It's not like your opinion is gonna change. She'll give you a verse or two and then you'll object to the use of it. She'll give you another verse and you'll object to that too. You just want to debate endlessly.
Where have I heard that one before? ;)
 
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Cis.jd

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That sounds rather "blanket." Not all Jews believed it, nor do many of them believe it now....either that, or my Jewish friends are lying to me.
Nope. They all do. Jewish always believed the soul will go or undergo something first before going to final destination.

Theologically developed? That implies the understanding was therefore man-made rather than God-breathed. Is that a correct assessment of what you said?
No. Many teachings are developed, it's not man made but man developed a better understanding of it as time went by.

I thought Jesus satisfied the justice of our sins and imperfections given that it is written that He became sin FOR us. Where does scripture demand that He did not atone for it all?
But not all sins can just be swept under the rug. The reality and virtue of justice still exists.

Matthew 5:26
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Who cares? Plenty of verses have been provided in this thread. It's not like your opinion is gonna change. She'll give you a verse or two and then you'll object to the use of it. She'll give you another verse and you'll object to that too. You just want to debate endlessly.

Only GOD can read my mind and you are not him so please refrain from insinuating that you are him by your statements.
 
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Swordman007

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Why would you expect to, other than the mistaken notion that everything they taught must have been written down at the time they taught it?

It goes to credibility. If there is a place for purging, then one cannot escape the conclusion that Christ did NOT become sin for us, as is written. The scriptures give me no reason to believe:

* there is sin,
* there are half way sins, and then
* non-sin.

Sin is sin, from what I have always known, and attempts at establishing what sound like "not quite" sin, but also "not quite" righteous....as if there is some middle ground between sin and righteousness. To my thinking, that would be like saying a woman can be "partially pregnant" without arguing the finer details of the fertilized egg not yet attached to the lining, etc.

So, there's no middle ground to Christ's crucifixion from what I understand that the apostles wrote. If someone has something substantial in the language of scripture in support of purging, then I'd be interested in seeing it.
 
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