As riot raged at Capitol, Trump tried to call senators to overturn election

[Dan1988]

I say you're both correct. Both the Right and the Left fomented hatred.

<-- Centrist

(Having said that, Trump in particular excels at stirring up paranoia.)

For what it's worth, my expert opinion is - both the Democrat and Republican parties have evolved into entirely different animals then what they started out as.

 

[Dan1988]

What “ behind the scenes”?? Did Giuliani et al present their claims to various courts more than 60 times, or did they not? Did they fail each time, or did they not?

And I’m not an American.

Yes they did present their claims 60 times, but the courts refused to look at the claims. Refusing to investigate claims, doesn't convince me that the claims were baseless. It does convince me that the courts are afraid to open Pandora's box.

 

[SimplyMe]

Yes they did present their claims 60 times, but the courts refused to look at the claims. Refusing to investigate claims, doesn't convince me that the claims were baseless. It does convince me that the courts are afraid to open Pandora's box.

This would be false. You need to read the decisions of the 60 courts, not believe the false claims of the losers.

 

[Green Sun]

Yes they did present their claims 60 times, but the courts refused to look at the claims. Refusing to investigate claims, doesn't convince me that the claims were baseless. It does convince me that the courts are afraid to open Pandora's box.

SCOTUS didn't look into the claims, because SCOTUS leaves these issues up to the State Supreme Courts, since they are state issues. Their claims failed to convince State Supreme Courts, and SCOTUS saw no need to hear an appeal, since the evidence presented was insufficient.

The absolute holy grail of these terrible lawsuits was Texas claiming that, since Pennsylvania was allowed to alter their own election laws (and the claims that they did so unconstitutionally were already shot down by PA's Supreme Court, and upheld by SCOTUS), it disenfranchised Texas. That these other states were "diluting" Texas' votes, so they had standing. Their argument included them admitting that they had no evidence of fraud, because the fraud was "undetectable". They stated they did not need to "prove" fraud. They wanted SCOTUS to stop Pennsylvania, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Michigan from sending their Electors to Congress.

Texas v. Pennsylvania - Wikipedia

SCOTUS chose not to hear the case, due to it's utter lack of standing and it's nonsense argument on why Texas was 'wronged'.

The State of Texas's motion for leave to file a bill of complaint is denied for lack of standing under Article III of the Constitution. Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another State conducts its elections. All other pending motions are dismissed as moot.

Two of the judges, Alito and Thomas, said they'd hear the case, but even they wouldn't give Texas what they wanted.

In my view, we do not have discretion to deny the filing of a bill of complaint in a case that falls within our original jurisdiction ... I would therefore grant the motion to file the bill of complaint but would not grant other relief, and I express no view on any other issue.

Texas presented an absolutely incompetent argument, that at minimum would require the 11th Amendment to not exist, as it also had to argue that Texas as a state, and not it's voters, were harmed. To simultaneously believe that Texas could have it's own election laws, but other states aren't allowed to do so if it harms Texas

All of the lawsuits were similarly ridiculous, illogical, and fundamentally flawed, because when you don't have evidence of fraud, you gotta get really creative. Gotta make Trump happy, even if you look like a fool while doing so.

 

[The Ant]

Yes they did present their claims 60 times, but the courts refused to look at the claims. Refusing to investigate claims, doesn't convince me that the claims were baseless. It does convince me that the courts are afraid to open Pandora's box.

You are wrong. The courts looked at each claim laid. And found all of them meritless. And it is not the court’s role to “investigate”. That’s what you’re supposed to do before you bring your case to them!

 

[cow451]

Yes they did present their claims 60 times, but the courts refused to look at the claims. Refusing to investigate claims, doesn't convince me that the claims were baseless. It does convince me that the courts are afraid to open Pandora's box.

They looked at the evidence presented and found it insufficient to warrant the “remedies” requested (throwing out thousands of votes, halting certification, etc.). The fact is that courts don’t turn the world upside down for people unhappy their guy lost.

Did you expect 50 states to sit on their hands, keeping the President in office while months passed? Are you serious?

If the “massive fraud” happened, 50 states’ AG’s can move forward building cases of fraud. You will notice very little going on because the allegations that may have merit are small in number.

For the President’s allegations to be true, a massive coordinated effort by REPUBLICAN elected officials would have been required. Now, explain WHY and HOW that could’ve happened.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Yes they did present their claims 60 times, but the courts refused to look at the claims. Refusing to investigate claims, doesn't convince me that the claims were baseless. It does convince me that the courts are afraid to open Pandora's box.

I like this argument until you see its merit.
Evidence has to show a crime was commited over which a judge or jury can conclude and bring about correction or punishment etc.

It is at the end of an investigation, when the facts are all disclosed and there is something to decide. What was put to the courts was just speculation and interpretation of events which is not evidence to a court. Equally the people bringing the cases suffered no legal loss, and had no right to have a court rule and they had no gain to be given.

You have the President of the USA with the CIA, FBI, Police, federal and state system under them, and they could not with all this power and authority raise a case that was strong enough to be heard, literally heard, but because they tried so many times it must be true. No it must absolutely be futile and delusional.

It is in the same league as me on a christian forum being evil and demon possessed because I believe in following Jesus and walking in love and not believing someone has the power to create something out of nothing ex-nihilo like God. It made me laugh when they suggested it was a spiritual battle, rather than they were deluded, and if they could create something ex-nihilo, to do it. Not surprisingly they disappeared.

Political lying is far easier, and slandering elections a political pass time by both parties, but Trump took it to a new level of absurdity. Any lie on the internet he would happily spread without a simple check, when the very rumour was shown to be a lie, even among the other speculation, he would repeat it. That is crazy behaviour, and you see the consequences today, talk of civil war.

 

[Vylo]

Yes they did present their claims 60 times, but the courts refused to look at the claims. Refusing to investigate claims, doesn't convince me that the claims were baseless. It does convince me that the courts are afraid to open Pandora's box.

60 times they failed to produce sufficient or any real evidence at all. Either there was no widespread voter fraud, or Trump picks judges so poorly he should never be allowed back into office.

 

[Dan1988]

They looked at the evidence presented and found it insufficient to warrant the “remedies” requested (throwing out thousands of votes, halting certification, etc.). The fact is that courts don’t turn the world upside down for people unhappy their guy lost.

Did you expect 50 states to sit on their hands, keeping the President in office while months passed? Are you serious?

If the “massive fraud” happened, 50 states’ AG’s can move forward building cases of fraud. You will notice very little going on because the allegations that may have merit are small in number.

For the President’s allegations to be true, a massive coordinated effort by REPUBLICAN elected officials would have been required. Now, explain WHY and HOW that could’ve happened.

I do appreciate your summary of the situation, it sounds logical and reasonable. But I'm still not convinced that the election was won fairly and squarely.
We will probably never know the truth, since we don't have access to all the evidence. This case involves the most powerful people on the planet, so it's not a regular fraud investigation. The world has never seen a precedent to this case.
Our opinions will have no baring on the outcome. So we should eat, drink and be merry for we don't know what tomorrow will bring.

 

[cow451]

I do appreciate your summary of the situation, it sounds logical and reasonable. But I'm still not convinced that the election was won fairly and squarely.
We will probably never know the truth, since we don't have access to all the evidence. This case involves the most powerful people on the planet, so it's not a regular fraud investigation. The world has never seen a precedent to this case.
Our opinions will have no baring on the outcome. So we should eat, drink and be merry for we don't know what tomorrow will bring.

Just to be clear. Your argument is that the Leader of the Free World may have been unseated by his own party in collusion with the Democratic Party. Just for fun, tell us why the GOP would do that?

 

[LightLoveHope]

I do appreciate your summary of the situation, it sounds logical and reasonable. But I'm still not convinced that the election was won fairly and squarely.
We will probably never know the truth, since we don't have access to all the evidence. This case involves the most powerful people on the planet, so it's not a regular fraud investigation. The world has never seen a precedent to this case.
Our opinions will have no baring on the outcome. So we should eat, drink and be merry for we don't know what tomorrow will bring.

We do know those who ran the election, both democrats and republicans confirmed the election was run well and was fair. It is their job to make sure things went as expected and all the workers did their jobs and they say it went better than previous elections.

We also know conspiracy theorists raised suspicions of fraud, which they have been unable to prove, so therefore are wrong, false, invented, empty.

The problem with elections is millions of people are involved with a small group responsible for recording their votes, which is a mammoth task, which is costly to check and validate once finished. It is futile to doubt the legitimacy of the process if you do not have the money or resources to pay for such a check.

So we are left with a fantastic election that was clean and fair. And that is the problem, because of hatred and paranoia the Trump followers believe they should have won no matter what and are willing to force a win against democracy, whether the facts say otherwise. It is 100% clear the propoganda has pushed many over this edge, probably never to return.

God bless you

 

[Green Sun]

I do appreciate your summary of the situation, it sounds logical and reasonable. But I'm still not convinced that the election was won fairly and squarely.
We will probably never know the truth, since we don't have access to all the evidence. This case involves the most powerful people on the planet, so it's not a regular fraud investigation. The world has never seen a precedent to this case.
Our opinions will have no baring on the outcome. So we should eat, drink and be merry for we don't know what tomorrow will bring.

If you cannot be swayed by any form of evidence, you already decided what your "truth" is, by rejecting anything that differs from your worldview. It's a disappointing thing to hear.

You are right, at least in some way; your opinion will not affect the outcome, and Biden will become president.

 

[Sparagmos]

but half the world believes it stolen from President Trump

That’s absolute nonsense. Half of the country doesn’t even think that, let alone the world. You need to get out of your bubble.

 

[Pommer]

I do appreciate your summary of the situation, it sounds logical and reasonable. But I'm still not convinced that the election was won fairly and squarely.
We will probably never know the truth, since we don't have access to all the evidence. This case involves the most powerful people on the planet, so it's not a regular fraud investigation. The world has never seen a precedent to this case.
Our opinions will have no baring on the outcome. So we should eat, drink and be merry for we don't know what tomorrow will bring.

How long are you going to be stirring this pot?

 

[stevil]

I do appreciate your summary of the situation, it sounds logical and reasonable. But I'm still not convinced that the election was won fairly and squarely.
We will probably never know the truth, since we don't have access to all the evidence. This case involves the most powerful people on the planet, so it's not a regular fraud investigation. The world has never seen a precedent to this case.
Our opinions will have no baring on the outcome. So we should eat, drink and be merry for we don't know what tomorrow will bring.

There is no reason to suspect that any significant voter fraud happened.
This election was as ordinary as any election that preceded it.

Many Trump supporters seem to be confused because on the one hand they had D Trump and his most loyal elites claiming that their was massive voter fraud and that the election was stolen.
Just like the claims that Obama was born in Kenya or the claims that Obama wire tapped Trump or the claims that Climate Change is a Chinese conspiracy or the claims that windmills cause cancer, there was absolutely no evidence provided to support the claims. The aim of the claim was to convince those that look to Trump as a trusted source to simply believe him.
Foxnews and right wing media and Trump's loyal elites parrot Trump. So many people making the same claims, from so many trusted sources - it must be real!!!!! It must be!!!!!
They must have seen the evidence, But there is a huge conspiracy by the entire world to cover up all this abundant evidence, even the Trump appointed judges are in on it. Damn the Deep State!

 

[LightLoveHope]

It may seem a side issue, but the conspiracy folk who claim the fraud election took place stealing the victory from Trump often also believe covid-19 is no worse than the flu, and fake.

Now as I know people directly saving peoples lives in hospital, I know it is not a fake and many are suffering from ptsd and exhaustion. It was a new war in the spring, which devastated the medics, they had a breather and now it is worse. For these folk it is insane to leave a hospital to meet folk protesting the pandemic is made up.

Now if people die in front of you and you still deny it, relatives, friends, those who lost their partners broken and alone and still you say its all a lie, it is no longer an issue of truth, it is bordering on mental illness. There may well be a genetic behaviour element to the survival of people so always a group exist to push against the definitive conviction of the group, because prior to science, it was probably all wrong.

My point is simply these folk will always exist, and that is fine, as long as their area of influence is limited and isolated.

And you know Trump has no clue he has gone too far, and whatever he says, his bubble is blown, completely, there is no walking away. The riots he fed, prompted, encouraged, lit the touch paper, aimed, timed and told when to move. Like a mafia boss who just happened to put all the pieces into place, he is guilty of it all. His followers know they have gone too far because their answer is no, it was a false flag operation, the deaths were acted, the crimes were deep state at work.

It is the problem of playing a game like it is about power and the opposition when it is about dealing with the issues at hand and compromising when enough is enough. But like the Four Seasons press conference mistaken for the hotel chain but actually a garden centre could not be rolled back, which any sane public relations operation would do, Trump cannot lose. And likewise his followers cannot back down or they are betraying the cause, until they discover the cause itself is fake.

God bless you

 

[Gene2memE]

Yes they did present their claims 60 times, but the courts refused to look at the claims.

That's not true. Not true in the slightest.

If you look at the decisions, there were a number of courts that did actively consider their claims. Seven courts - three in Pennsylvania, one in Wisconsin, one in Minnesota, one in Arizona and one in Michigan - ruled on the merits of various suits seeking to have votes tossed out due to various alleged irregularities, or have entire state elections dismissed or certification delayed for recounts/investigations.

Universally, the judges that did rule on these cases found that there was no evidence to substantiate their claims. Some of the legal opinions were searing - to the point where several of the lawyers involved are now having to explain why they should not be disbarred over their actions and bringing forth cases with such a lack of merit.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Just to be clear. Your argument is that the Leader of the Free World may have been unseated by his own party in collusion with the Democratic Party. Just for fun, tell us why the GOP would do that?

Republican In Name Only? Deep State Operative? Hugo Chavez made them do it?

 

[Dan1988]

Just to be clear. Your argument is that the Leader of the Free World may have been unseated by his own party in collusion with the Democratic Party. Just for fun, tell us why the GOP would do that?

I believe there was a conspiracy to bring Trump down, and many Republicans colluded. The reason they did, is the same reason for every evil thing. "For the love of money, is the root of all kinds of evil".
Most people would betray their party, if they are rewarded financially.

 

[Dan1988]

We do know those who ran the election, both democrats and republicans confirmed the election was run well and was fair. It is their job to make sure things went as expected and all the workers did their jobs and they say it went better than previous elections.

We also know conspiracy theorists raised suspicions of fraud, which they have been unable to prove, so therefore are wrong, false, invented, empty.

The problem with elections is millions of people are involved with a small group responsible for recording their votes, which is a mammoth task, which is costly to check and validate once finished. It is futile to doubt the legitimacy of the process if you do not have the money or resources to pay for such a check.

So we are left with a fantastic election that was clean and fair. And that is the problem, because of hatred and paranoia the Trump followers believe they should have won no matter what and are willing to force a win against democracy, whether the facts say otherwise. It is 100% clear the propoganda has pushed many over this edge, probably never to return.

God bless you

The only part I agree with you on, is that propaganda has divided Americans and turned them into irreconcilable enemies.