Null/Voided Out

[Clare73]

I suggest you contact [B]@Lazarus Short[/B] for an exhaustive study of Godfire throughout scripture.

Scripture is my only authority, and is what you will have to use to demonstrate your arguments to me.

I've presented NT teaching on both the fire of purification and the fire of hell, which the NT sets against one another, not the same as one another.

It will give you insight into the PURifying purpose of the holy fire of God's passion, just as God is love.

Then you can return in flaming fire as a messenger of God (Ps 104:4) to heap burning coals on my head (Pro 25:21-22) and impress your burning coal on my sinful lips (Isa 6:7) until I repent in sackcloth and ashes, from the greatest to the least.

Dost thou do well to sulk over the salvation of the Ninevites, Jonah?

Only in the hearts and minds of those who deny the power and will of Yah to Shuah creation.

 

[Clare73]

Pales in comparison with Damnationism. - lol

Predestination saves less than 1 in 100,000? The worst sort of limiting.

Did the cross save a handful but send countless billions to eternal conscious torment? Seems wasteful on all counts. Only an angry volcano god would devise such a flawed plan.

Let's stay on point.
It's not about human reasoning's objection to "limiting," it's about consistency in Paul's teaching.
It is Paul who does the limiting of numbers, you really should take it up with him.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks guy, but I'm not hundreds of years old.

And exegesis of Scripture is not apologetics.
Apologetics is arguing from theological systems, exegesis is of Scripture only, which is not systematic.

That's the problem. It's a closed system. An echo chamber. A place where the description of God is that of an angry volcano god. This cannot be questioned because it is built into the closed system. The feedback loop offers no escape. Its own personal ideological/theological hell.

I question that status quo by pointing to items within the system that challenge it. Those who are defending the ideological/theological castle will fight tooth and nail to maintain it with no rational consideration about what it means on a practical level.

Did God with forethought and full knowledge create a plan for humankind that would require incinerating the vast majority? This tyrannical and sadistic idea is readily accepted as fact in the closed system.

 

[Saint Steven]

Let's stay on point.
It's not about human reasoning's objection to "limiting," it's about consistency in Paul's teaching.
It is Paul who does the limiting of numbers, you really should take it up with him.

This may be where the contradictions enter the equation. Did Paul write Romans? (yup) What does this say about the numbers? (FYI "the many" = all) How many were made sinners? ("the many" = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Let's stay on point.
It's not about human reasoning's objection to "limiting," it's about consistency in Paul's teaching.
It is Paul who does the limiting of numbers, you really should take it up with him.

One consistent thing in Paul's teachings is the total lack of the word "hell." Go ahead, see what you find. That lack, for me, indicates a non-wrathful God...among many other things.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Good to see another universalist on CF. It happens once in a while. Welcome!

Dear Shrewd Manager,

Thanks for the welcome!

People do call me a universalist sometimes but that really isn't a label that fits me. I know there are universalist denominations out there but I do not associate with any of them nor do I really know much about them. In fact, I do not associate with any church or denomination any longer since I received the Latter Rain in 2005.

I grew up in the Church of Christ and changed to non-denominational churches in my 20's and 30's. Then in my early 40's, my family and I started attending a Oneness Pentecostal church. We started going there for 3 main reasons. We had a close friend who went there, they baptize in the name of Jesus and they supported teachings on End-time prophecy. Other than that, the church was a culture shock for us but we managed stay because of the friendships we developed there. But all that changed for me after about a year and a half of attending there. From out of the blue, Christ came a second time to my wife and I and turned our world upside. With that visitation, Christ healed our spiritual blindness and the scriptures opened up to us. Within just 2 or 3 weeks, nearly everything that we thought we knew as "truth" we realized were actually lies from Satan. Of course, we had to leave the church and we lost all our new friends. I posted my conversion testimony in my personal profile which goes into quite a bit more details of what happened to us at that time.

Up until that time of my conversion, my beliefs were very much like everyone else's. I believed in Free Will, Hell and even taught End-time prophecy. I had truly eaten the leavened bread that everyone who is Called Out eats:

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

After my conversion, I learned that there is no truth at all in ANY of the churches. Once that bread is eaten, it will cause a Called Out believer to "fall away" and spiritually die. Once that happens, we cannot be renewed by repentance.

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The "repentance" mentioned here is referring to trying to make ourselves acceptable to God through our own works. Adam started it with His apron of figs leaves and mankind has been doing the same with "religion" (man's attempt to make one's self acceptable to God) ever since. Shortly after I was Called Out, it happened to me, just as it happens to everyone. We cannot deviate from this pathway because it is the pathway laid down by God. Everyone must and will travel it in order to be saved.

Our carnal natures also prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

When one drinks the Old Wine (Old Covenant of Law), it causes us to "fall away" and spiritually die. It is the "sin that leads to death". As I said, it happens to everyone shortly after they are Called Out. We have no say in the matter. When one is spiritually blind and carnal (we still see Jesus in the flesh), Satan comes to us and easily deceives us. He masquerades as an angel of light (Christ). Our carnal nature loves his teachings (like the Doctrine of Free Will and Hell) and hates the true teachings of God.

2Cor 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Only the Elect (after they receive the Latter Rain) can come out from that powerful deception.

2Thes 2:7-12 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This experience of evil is all part of the pathway of salvation that is taught in many places in scripture but I have only found very, very few believers who can see it. The reason I mention it here is because I am wanting to know if you and Steve have the same understanding since you can also see that Christ is the Savior of the World. Can you see it too?

Joe

 

[Clare73]

That's the problem. It's a closed system. An echo chamber. A place where the description of God is that of an angry volcano god. This cannot be questioned because it is built into the closed system. The feedback loop offers no escape. Its own personal ideological/theological hell.

Well, since I am not using "systems," but I am using Scripture, therefore, systems are not relevant to my argument, are you saying that Scripture is a closed system?
If so, your objections to God's "closed system" will have to be taken up with him--it's his Word written.

I question that status quo by pointing to items within the system that challenge it.

There is nothing in Scripture, understood in its context, that challenges God's "closed system."

Those who are defending the ideological/theological castle will fight tooth and nail to maintain it with no rational consideration about what it means on a practical level.

Did God with forethought and full knowledge create a plan for humankind that would require incinerating the vast majority?
This tyrannical and sadistic idea is readily accepted as fact in the closed system.

If that's what his revelation in his Word written presents, then he did.
And you have yet to demonstrate your own argument from that Word written.

 

[Clare73]

This may be where the contradictions enter the equation. Did Paul write Romans? (yup) What does this say about the numbers? (FYI "the many" = all) How many were made sinners? ("the many" = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, (i.e., all without exception)
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. (i.e., all without distinction)
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Addressed in post #352.

 

[Clare73]

One consistent thing in Paul's teachings is the total lack of the word "hell."

Jesus is the only one who reveals hell
(Mt 5:22, 12:31, 32; 13:30, 18:8, 9, 25:41, 46; Mk 9:43, 45, 47-48; Lk 3:17, 16:24).

Go ahead, see what you find. That lack, for me, indicates a non-wrathful God...among many other things.

Are you aware of Paul's teaching in:

--God's wrath being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness (Ro 1:18),
--God's mercy in saving us from his wrath on his enemies (Ro 5:9-10),
--let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things (immoral, impure, greedy, idolatry) God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient (Eph 5:5-6)
--because of these (sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry) the wrath of God is coming (Col 3:5-6),
--Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1Th 1:10),

all of this being from the one who received his revelation from Jesus personally in the third heaven
(2Co 12:1-5)?

 

[Saint Steven]

Dear Shrewd Manager,

Thanks for the welcome!

Hey, Joe

Here is how to address a post to someone specifically. Begin by typing the "@" sign. Then start adding their username and a popup list will appear. Click the proper username and they will get an alert to your post. Like this:

@Shrewd Manager and @FaithWillDo

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hey, Joe

Here is how to address a post to someone specifically. Begin by typing the "@" sign. Then start adding their username and a popup list will appear. Click the proper username and they will get an alert to your post. Like this:

@Shrewd Manager and @FaithWillDo

Steve,
Thanks for the info. I'll give it a try next time.
Joe

 

[Saint Steven]

This experience of evil is all part of the pathway of salvation that is taught in many places in scripture but I have only found very, very few believers who can see it. The reason I mention it here is because I am wanting to know if you and Steve have the same understanding since you can also see that Christ is the Savior of the World. Can you see it too?

Your teachings are news to me. We agree on some points but not on others. So, I guess that means I can't see it and might mean that you believe I am lost. Not sure.

 

[Saint Steven]

Addressed in post #352.

I see you can't make your "all without exception" and "all without distinction" work for verse 19. ("the many" 2x)

Saint Steven said: ↑
This may be where the contradictions enter the equation. Did Paul write Romans? (yup) What does this say about the numbers? (FYI "the many" = all) How many were made sinners? ("the many" = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Your teachings are news to me. We agree on some points but not on others. So, I guess that means I can't see it and might mean that you believe I am lost. Not sure.

Steve,
We are saved by faith alone and sanctified by truth. Christ takes us along the path that leads to destruction of our Old Man and then takes the New Man along the path which matures us through judgment so that we produce spiritual fruit. Everyone who has been Called is somewhere on the path. Many are Called but Few are chosen. Only the "chosen" make it to "destruction" in this life and then onto spiritual maturity. Those who are not chosen (only Called) will "die in the wilderness" and not cross the Jordan River. Joshua and Caleb were the only ones who lived to cross the river and they are "types" of the Elect.

As for you and me, we are in the hands of Christ and He will see to it that we are saved at the time that has been established for us. Neither one of us can deviate from God's will and plan. As for knowing where we are on the path, it is difficult to know where anyone else is along the path. I sometimes wonder where I currently am on the path. But the one thing that comforts me is that I trust in the Lord and want His "will" to be done in my life - whether His "will" takes me to maturity or not. I trust in Him to do what is best for me.

Scripture says for us to work out our own salvation:

Phi 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We work it out with "fear and trembling" because we don't know how far the Lord is going to take us along the pathway in this age. It is God which worketh in us to "will" and to do of His good pleasure. We really are in the hands of Christ for our salvation. Thank God the Father that Christ is loving, merciful and more powerful than our Old Man. He will complete the task the Father gave Him. Here in lies the patience of the saints. We must wait on the Lord to complete His work in us.

All that matters concerning if we are chosen or not is where we are along the pathway when we die. But as long as we are breathing, we are moving along the path. Where Christ takes us to on the path is up to Him. Just because you can't understand what I understand now does not mean much at this time since we all keep moving along the path. The same goes for Clare73. She may be chosen but just has not experienced the Latter Rain yet which heals her spiritual blindness. As you know, salvation is certain, only the timing of it is a mystery.

Joe

 

[Clare73]

I see you can't make your "all without exception" and "all without distinction" work for verse 19. ("the many" 2x)

Didn't know you were expecting me to do so in my post #368, responding to your post #364 (below),
but here it is:

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people = (all without exception)
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. = (all without distinction)
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, ("many" may include "all," and in this case it does)
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ("many" excludes "all")

The response of my post #352, to which I referred you in my post #368:
"We have Paul go thank for the dual usage, if his revelation is going to agree with itself in the rest of his revelation.
Single usage of "all" or "many" sets parts of his revelation in disagreement with other parts.
That's your first clue that single usage is incorrect, for the Word of God does not contradict itself."

This may be where the contradictions enter the equation. Did Paul write Romans? (yup) What does this say about the numbers? (FYI "the many" = all) How many were made sinners? ("the many" = all)
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Didn't know you were expecting me to do so in my post #368, responding to your post #364 (below),
but here it is:

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people = (all without exception)
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. = (all without distinction)
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, ("many" may include "all," and in this case it does)
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ("many" excludes "all")

Once again, you are projecting your doctrinal bias onto the scripture. The word "all" is the same NT Greek word (pas) in both cases which you define differently in each case to match your doctrinal opinion.

3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

[When 3956 (pás) modifies a word with the definite article it has "extensive-intensive" force – and is straightforward intensive when the Greek definite article is lacking.]

 

[Clare73]

Didn't know you were expecting me to do so in my post #368, responding to your post #364 (below), but here it is:

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people = (all without exception)
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. = (all without distinction)
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, ("many" may include "all," and in this case it does)
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ("many" excludes "all")

The response of my post #352:
"We have Paul to thank for the dual usage, in order for his revelation to agree with itself in the rest of his revelation.
Single usage of "all" or "many" sets parts of his revelation in disagreement with other parts.
That's your first clue that single usage is incorrect, for the Word of God does not contradict itself."

Once again, you are projecting your doctrinal bias onto the scripture. The word "all" is the same NT Greek word (pas) in both cases which you define differently in each case to match your doctrinal opinion.

3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

When 3956 (pás) modifies a word with the definite article it has "extensive-intensive" force – and is straightforward intensive when the Greek definite article is lacking.]

It's not about just altering the Greek meaning of "all" and "many,"
it's about understanding Paul's usage in a way that agrees with himself in the rest of his NT revelation.

See my post #352 in yours above.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's not about just altering the Greek meaning of "all" and "many,"
it's about understanding Paul's usage in a way that agrees with himself in the rest of his NT revelation.

We appear to be at an impasse. - lol

 

[Clare73]

We appear to be at an impasse. - lol

For the second time. . .

 

[Lazarus Short]

Jesus is the only one who reveals hell
(Mt 5:22, 12:31, 32; 13:30, 18:8, 9, 25:41, 46; Mk 9:43, 45, 47-48; Lk 3:17, 16:24).

Are you aware of Paul's teaching in:

--God's wrath being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness (Ro 1:18),
--God's mercy in saving us from his wrath on his enemies (Ro 5:9-10),
--let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things (immoral, impure, greedy, idolatry) God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient (Eph 5:5-6)
--because of these (sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry) the wrath of God is coming (Col 3:5-6),
--Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1Th 1:10),

all of this being from the one who received his revelation from Jesus personally in the third heaven
(2Co 12:1-5)?

That is a nice, very nice try at dancing around what I said without really answering it. Yes, Paul mentioned God's Wrath - he did not mention "hell," a fact you skipped merrily past

As for Jesus, He has become a victim of bad translation...just like the rest of us:

Matthew 5:22 should be "gehenna" not "hell fire"

Matthew 12:31-32 not "world" but "age"

Matthew 13:30 burning tares? The passage does not say they are burned in Hell, just burned. The Lake of Fire is a more obvious destination for the tares, but I have much more to say on this subject.

Matthew 18:8-9 again, it's "gehenna"

Matthew 25:41, 46 The YLT has "age during" instead of "everlasting," and Young knew his Bible better than both of us put together.

Mark 9:43, 45, 47-48 Again, my KJV's center-column notes say "gehenna." Anyway, we find "hell" and "hel" in the 1611 KJV, in Beowulf...and in pagan Norse Mythology ("hel" only).

Luke 3:17 I note here that the wheat and the chaff were part of the same seed before the threshing. Jesus would have understood it, and if you think about it, it seems to indicate that the wheat and the chaff are simply the good and bad aspects of the individual. The relevant passage in Matthew is not so specific.

Luke 16:24 There are other ways to interpret the parable than that the rich man was in hell - plus, that rich man in hell view misses Jesus' point.

Any more questions?