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Saint Steven

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I also have to say that God's Word does not contradict itself.
I didn't say that. I said the Bible contradicts itself. We see Bible-vs-Bible on the forum all the time. And the atheists have made whole lists of the contradictions in the Bible. Are they 100 percent wrong about what they have found? I would say the problems are with translation errors and built-in bias. The problem is not with God's word. The problem is that Christians have replaced God's word with a flawed book. They even use the erroneous term "closed canon" as if God stopped writing and closed the book to prevent himself from ever speaking again. Jesus says his sheep hear his voice. Most Christians think that the only place that voice can be heard is in the pages of the closed canon.

Don't get me wrong. I haven't thrown out my Bible. But I still have to steer around the Damnationist bias and other issues.
 
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Saint Steven

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I have considered that understanding before and it seems to make sense. However, there is just one problem that causes me to not change my understanding. The "gifts" are revocable. With my present understanding, it is confirmed with other scripture.

What do you think?

I'll consider it more.
Joe
As you discovered, "gifts" was not a reference to the gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit. In fact in this case, the word "gifts" in reference to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is a misnomer. IMHO --- We don't possess "the gifts", they possess us. (1 Corinthians 12:11)

The same Greek word (as used in Romans 22:29) is used here to mean "without regret".

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
 
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Saint Steven

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I didn't say that. I said the Bible contradicts itself. We see Bible-vs-Bible on the forum all the time. And the atheists have made whole lists of the contradictions in the Bible. Are they 100 percent wrong about what they have found? I would say the problems are with translation errors and built-in bias. The problem is not with God's word. The problem is that Christians have replaced God's word with a flawed book. They even use the erroneous term "closed canon" as if God stopped writing and closed the book to prevent himself from ever speaking again. Jesus says his sheep hear his voice. Most Christians think that the only place that voice can be heard is in the pages of the closed canon.

Don't get me wrong. I haven't thrown out my Bible. But I still have to steer around the Damnationist bias and other issues.

Steve,
Thanks for clarifying your comment. I agree with you. There is a difference between "scripture" and the translations. As you are probably aware, Christ is the Word of God. A witness of Him has been given to us through scripture. Scripture is not the Word of God – Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Both Old & New Testaments are a witness of Him as recorded by the prophets/saints.

Here is another apparent contradiction in scripture related to Salvation for all and the mistranslation of the Greek word "aion".

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where are both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Greek word "aion" in that verse is mistranslated. It does not mean for "ever and ever". It means
"ages of the ages".

Here is the proper translation of that verse:

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages.

Confirmation that “age of the ages” is the proper translation is contained in the verses below:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Here again “aion” is incorrectly translated as for "ever and ever” and should be translated as "ages of the ages". This verse below is the proof:

1Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ’s reign does not last for "ever and ever". It comes to an end after all His work has been completed. He only reigns during the “ages”. After that time, He will have no work left to complete and He will deliver up the Kingdom to the Father. Christ's reign will come to an end. God will then be “all in all”.

Joe
 
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1213

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Dear 1213,
Why do you believe not everyone will accept it? Is there any scripture for your belief? Or does your belief come from what you have been told?

Actually, scripture clearly states the opposite of your belief and says that everyone WILL accept Christ:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
...

That tells all will bow to him. I think that happens when they must do so and there is no other choice. And by accepting him I meant to accept him freely by agreeing with him voluntarily.
 
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Clare73

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The fire is eternal, but man's stay in it is temporary. Fine distinction I know, but
do try to pay attention:
As in paying attention to the unending torment of those in the fire of hell in Rev 14:11, 19:3?
For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good; (Mk 9:49-50a)
Saying everyone will get the fire treatment, it is good for us.
So everyone gets a temporary stay in hell?

In the context of Mk 9:43, 45,47,
where we must subject ourselves to pain and suffering to deal with our sin, so that we will not be destroyed in hell,
salting (preserving) with fire" (v.49) is the suffering of dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) in order to preserve ourselves from the fire of hell (v.43, 45, 47).

In the NT, salt is a figure of preservation from sin:
through pain of dealing radically with our sin (Mk 9:49), and
through grace (Mk 9:50; Mt 5:13; Col 4:6).

In the NT, to be seasoned with salt is to be preserved from corruption through grace,
because salt penetrates, retards corruption, aids healing, and makes untasty things tasty.

Col 4:6 - "Let your conversation be always full of grace (no corruption), seasoned with salt (which retards corruption)."

Mk 9:50, Mt 5:13 - "You are the salt of the earth (and the decaying earth needs salt). But if salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled by men."
If the professing church (salt) loses its saltiness (holiness), it will no longer be good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled on by the world.

Mk 9:50 - ". . .Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with each other."
Grace retards our corruption (the source of our conflicts--Jas 4:1), and makes us peaceable.

So in Mk 9:49, in its context of vv. 43, 45, 47, the "salting with fire" is not the fire of hell that is good for us, what is good for us is the fire of suffering in dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) to avoid the fire of hell.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mt 12:32)

You are misinterpreting this verse to read that rejection or blasphemy of the HS will never be forgiven.
Ya' think?
The Holy Spirit is the agent of salvation. As long as you deny his testimony, you lock yourself out of salvation, there is no remedy but to repent, turn from your rejection of his testimony.
The meaning is that so long as you oppose the Kingdom, you will remain outside. This motif is found everywhere. The wages of sin is death, perishing for lack of knowledge etc. But eventually, you'll all come round. Why? Because God swore an oath that every knee will bow and tongue confess, just as He promised Abraham that all the nations would be blessed, and just as Jesus came to save the world from condemnation.
His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Lk 3:17)

Yes, our God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). The eternal fire IS God's presence. It burns the off the dross. The Greek word is PUR. Only God is eternal.
Yes, fire is pur in the Greek. . .relevance?

Okay, So, let's go with "eternal fire is God's presence". . .the fire that is not quenched
is God's presence in his wrath fixing itself on one's guilty conscience, and whose self accusations and reproach are "the worm that does not die,"
Then set it empty on its coals
So that it may be hot
And its bronze may glow
And its filthiness may be melted in it,
Its rust consumed.
She has wearied Me with toil,
Yet her great rust has not gone from her;
Let her rust be in the fire!
In your filthiness is lewdness.
Because I would have cleansed you,
Yet you are not clean,
You will not be cleansed from your filthiness again
Until I have spent My wrath on you.

(Ez 24:11-13)

See how that works? It's called prophetic rhetoric.
Works fine with earthly refining of sin in Mk 9:49, has nothing to do with hell.
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:10-11)
Great, so ppl who take the Covid vaccine become hard-bitten corrupted slaves of the devil who can't stand to be in the presence of Jesus and the angels.
Who knew Covid vaccine was in Rev 14:10-11?
But it's ok, don't give up now, because God's salvation is soon revealed:
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4)
And then consummated in the eschaton:
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b)
Good newsflash sister - JESUS WINS!
Was it ever in doubt?

So in Mk 9:49, in its context of vv. 43, 45, 47, the "salting with
fire" is not the fire of hell that is good for us, what is good for us is the fire of suffering in dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) to avoid the fire of hell.
 
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Clare73

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On the contrary. God's justice is curative and restorative.
Addressed in post #346 above.
People tend to forget that mercy is always an option in justice. Humans want their enemies to be punished. Jesus taught us that godliness means to love your enemies. (Matthew 5:43-48)

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 
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Clare73

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You are already familiar with the fire we are talking about. Only the wood, hay or straw will be consumed. "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49
Exegeted in post #346, above the "above."

You guys all using the same playbook?
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
 
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FaithWillDo

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That tells all will bow to him. I think that happens when they must do so and there is no other choice. And by accepting him I meant to accept him freely by agreeing with him voluntarily.


Dear 1213,

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

No one can accept Christ without Christ FIRST giving the person the Early Rain of the Spirit.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Only after the person is given the gift of the Holy Spirit can a person call Jesus "Lord". Also, this event is to the glory of the Father. When a person worships God, it must be in Spirit and in Truth. It is not forced. Otherwise, it is NOT to the glory of the Father. So once a person has the Spirit, they willingly call Jesus "Lord".

Is this verse below not true?

Rom 10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Also, consider these verses below:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So how many people has the Father given to Christ?

This many:

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Who could this possibly leave out?

Scripture is very clear - ALL will come to Christ, ALL will bow at the knee to Christ and ALL will call Him "Lord" to the GLORY of the Father. Then Christ will in no wise cast any of them out.

There is no time limit on Christ's love and mercy even though most people in the church teach that salvation can only occur before we physically die. But this belief is not true.

Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;

Judgment (symbolized by "fire" in many verses) comes after a lost person's physical death but judgment is not "for ever and ever". It is only for an "age". Their judgment comes to an end when Christ's desired results are achieved. And what are those results?

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Mankind does not understand Christ's judgment:

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Judgment is a necessary part of the pathway that leads to our salvation. The First Fruits are judged now in this age and all others will be judged in the final age. How else will mankind learn righteousness?

There is no time limit for salvation. Christ will not rest from His work of saving mankind until all are saved. As I said, in this present age, Christ is only saving His Elect, the First Fruits. He is not working to save anyone else at this time. The Elect are chosen from the foundation of the world and are the FIRST fruits of His harvest of mankind. As the name implies, they are only the FIRST to be saved. The main harvest of mankind occurs at the end of the growing season in the final age (the Lake of Fire age).

But the Elect don't have to wait for the final age. They are blessed and have the "ends of the ages" come upon them NOW.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Finally, consider Paul's conversion experience. Paul was on the Damascus Road and was on his way to persecute Christians. He would have never called Jesus "Lord" unless Christ came to him first and gave him the Early Rain of the Spirit. After receiving the Spirit, Paul immediately bowed down and called Him "Lord". Christ must come to us first and give us the Spirit or no we would ever be saved. Also, scripture says that Paul's conversion is the pattern whereby all will be saved. And because this is how Christ works in us to save us, no man may boast about their salvation. We contribute nothing. Otherwise, God would consider our "free will" efforts a "work" and we cannot be saved by works.

Remember...no man seeks after God. Christ MUST come to us first and give us the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is the only way we can be saved. We are at the mercy of Christ to come to us and save us. It is 100% His work and He will not fail anyone. When all is finish, this statement will be testified to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe
 
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Saint Steven

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So you're saying your verses imply no fire, which contradict my verses which actually state "fire."
Okay. . .that's a sincere question, and I'll address those verses on your basis.

I'm sure you understand that Scripture does not contradict itself.
So why are your interpretations of the Scriptures below in contradiction to the Scriptures of
Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 23:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 20:15, 21:8?

Because of dual uses of some words in the NT with which you evidently
are not familiar--all and many:

all:
a) all without exception
b) all without distinction

many:
c) does not exclude "all" = can mean "all"
d) excludes "all" = some

I'll indicate in the verses below which meaning is meant regarding all, a) or b),
and which meaning is meant regarding many, c) or d).

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins
of the whole world. = b)

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone = a)
over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all = b).

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, = b)

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all = b)
people, and especially of those who believe
[having warned of deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (v.1),
Paul warns of demonic teachings from hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron (v.2)
and the lies they teach (v.3),
and to whom he is contrasting those who believe (v.10),
the fallen whom God has put in a savable state rather than in an unsavable state like the fallen angels (v.1); i.e.,
fallen man can be saved, but the fallen angels (v.1) cannot be saved]

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. = b)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, = a)
so in Christ all will be made alive. = b)

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many = c)
died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! = d)
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many = c)
trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all = a)
people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all = b)
people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many = c)
were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many = d)
will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all = a)
things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all = a)
people— 2 for kings and all = a), including Nero
those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all = b)
people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all = b)
people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

So usage of the contextual meaning, where dual meanings exist, reconciles all your list of Scriptures to Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 20:15, 21:8 on unending fire, thereby removing all contradictions among them, which constitutes definitive Biblical proof that these are correct interpretations of your list.
Our great friend @FineLinen was a good help with this "all" does not mean all business. Simply insert the word SOME and see if it still works for you.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on SOME.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for SOME,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of SOME people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ SOME will be made alive.
 
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Clare73

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Our great friend @FineLinen was a good help with this "all" does not mean all business. Simply insert the word SOME and see if it still works for you.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on SOME.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for SOME,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of SOME people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ SOME will be made alive.
Well, FineLinen's suggestion has its limits.

"All" does not allow reduction in many verses where it is used, therefore, "many," which does allow reduction, would not work in those verses.

We have Paul go thank for the dual usage, if his revelation is going to agree with itself in the rest of his revelation.
Single usage of "all" or "many" sets parts of his revelation in disagreement with other parts.
That's your first clue that single usage is incorrect, for the Word of God does not contradict itself.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Our great friend @FineLinen was a good help with this "all" does not mean all business. Simply insert the word SOME and see if it still works for you.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on SOME.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for SOME,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of SOME people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ SOME will be made alive.

Steve,
It's amazing how the Spirit guides us in our thinking. I've used that same substitution with "some" on the very same verses! Amazing!
Joe
 
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Saint Steven

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That's your first clue that single usage is incorrect, for the Word of God does not contradict itself..
Don't you mean to say that the Bible doesn't contradict your doctrinal opinions because you have spent hundreds of years refining your apologetics?
 
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Saint Steven

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Steve,
It's amazing how the Spirit guides us in our thinking. I've used that same substitution with "some" on the very same verses! Amazing!
Joe
Clare wondered if we were using the same "playbook". I guess so. - lol

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
 
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So in Mk 9:49, in its context of vv. 43, 45, 47, the "salting with fire" is not the fire of hell that is good for us, what is good for us is the fire of suffering in dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) to avoid the fire of hell.
So in Mk 9:49, in its context of vv. 43, 45, 47, the "salting with fire" is not the fire of hell that is good for us, what is good for us is the fire of suffering in dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) to avoid the fire of hell.

I suggest you contact @Lazarus Short for an exhaustive study of Godfire throughout scripture. It will give you insight into the PURifying purpose of the holy fire of God's passion, just as God is love.

Then you can return in flaming fire as a messenger of God (Ps 104:4) to heap burning coals on my head (Pro 25:21-22) and impress your burning coal on my sinful lips (Isa 6:7) until I repent in sackcloth and ashes, from the greatest to the least.

Dost thou do well to sulk over the salvation of the Ninevites, Jonah?

Was it ever in doubt?

Only in the hearts and minds of those who deny the power and will of Yah to Shuah creation.
 
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Clare wondered if we were using the same "playbook". I guess so. - lol

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Hey Steve, just occurred to me that we are actually Catholic (ie universal), or at least Catholicists lol. Just not of the Roman variety.

The word Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English when referring to religious matters; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal") comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", ...

Catholic (term) - Wikipedia


Praise the Lord!
 
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Saint Steven

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Well, FineLinen's suggestion has its limits.
Pales in comparison with Damnationism. - lol

Predestination saves less than 1 in 100,000? The worst sort of limiting.

Did the cross save a handful but send countless billions to eternal conscious torment? Seems wasteful on all counts. Only an angry volcano god would devise such a flawed plan.
 
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Steve,
It's amazing how the Spirit guides us in our thinking. I've used that same substitution with "some" on the very same verses! Amazing!
Joe

Good to see another universalist on CF. It happens once in a while. Welcome!
 
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Clare73

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Don't you mean to say that the Bible doesn't contradict your doctrinal opinions because you have spent hundreds of years refining your apologetics?
Thanks guy, but I'm not hundreds of years old.

And exegesis of Scripture is not apologetics.
Apologetics is arguing from theological systems, exegesis is of Scripture only, which is not systematic.
 
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