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LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

mmksparbud

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Your spacious and thorough study seems to suggest that if you take any word in the bible and look at it enough and study it through the scholarship of the Jews, and the Greeks, and the Latins etc., that you can use it to prove any agenda you wish?

I believe you are right. In fact you have proven the reason there are hundreds of Christian churches all teaching similar, but conflicting doctrines, because some scholar in church A, objected to a another scholar's work in his church A. The scholar who objected was working in Aramaic and came to a completely different conclusion than the other scholar, who was studying the same passage of scripture, but was working in Greek.

The discussion between the 2 great scholars began, and got very heated and the people in church A started to take sides in the dispute. Long story shor, the objecting scholar finally decided he could no longer commune with the other scholar, and so he and the people that sided with him, left church A and started church B. After thousands of years, you have hundreds of Christian churches, all teacing conflicting doctrines, on every subject, and with no true authority to adjudicate the issues, it continues today as it has in the past.

So there is no secret that I can believe one doctrine about our "spirit", and you can believe a completely different doctrine about our "spirit". We will just have to agree again to disagree.

Great study though, I was impressed with your scholarship.


That may be what you guys do, however, any true lover of God's word studies the original language if possible for they give a clue to what the true meaning is. And that is the bottom line of study---to know the truth, not our truth, not anyone's elses truth, but THE truth as God intended. It is His truth that is the only thing that matters, not being in agreement with anyone else.
 
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BigDaddy4

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What does "whereunto even baptism doth also now save us" mean to you? Does it mean the opposite of what it says? What does "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." mean to you? Does that also mean the opposite of what it says? The Bible agrees with work theology, besides the thief went to Paradise, that is not heaven:
Matt 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matt 7: 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt. 25: 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

John 3: 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 9: 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14: 15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Acts 10: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 Cor. 3: 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

2 Cor. 5: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Gal. 6: 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Philip. 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Tim. 3: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 3: 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Heb. 13: 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1: 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 4: 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 Pet. 1: 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

1 Jn. 3: 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Rev. 2: 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev. 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Ignored for lack of coherent point and random scripture postings.
 
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BigDaddy4

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I suppose I will just have to agree with the Bible about proxy baptism.
Which means you disagree with mormonism. That is, if you actually understood what the Biblical position is on it. Which it appears you don't. Paul was asking a question to those who didn't believe in the resurrection. If these people didn't believe in a resurrection, then what is the purpose of them baptizing there dead if the dead will not be resurrected (according to their belief)? His point was it was a useless practice for them.

Notice Paul uses THEM, not a 'we' or 'us'. It was never a Biblical belief or practice (OT or NT). Outside of this one obscure and out of context line, there is absolutely no evidence of Jews, Christians, or the early Christian church believing in or practicing baptisms for the dead.
 
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He is the way

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Which means you disagree with mormonism. That is, if you actually understood what the Biblical position is on it. Which it appears you don't. Paul was asking a question to those who didn't believe in the resurrection. If these people didn't believe in a resurrection, then what is the purpose of them baptizing there dead if the dead will not be resurrected (according to their belief)? His point was it was a useless practice for them.

Notice Paul uses THEM, not a 'we' or 'us'. It was never a Biblical belief or practice (OT or NT). Outside of this one obscure and out of context line, there is absolutely no evidence of Jews, Christians, or the early Christian church believing in or practicing baptisms for the dead.
If they didn't believe in the resurrection they would NOT be doing baptism for the dead. Baptism for the dead was being done by those who had the authority to do that work. Paul was a preacher, not a baptizer:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 1:14 - 17)

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
 
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BigDaddy4

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It is hard find a valid defense against Biblical scripture.
Vomiting scripture to see what sticks shows a lack of discussion maturity. The Bible tells me to not associate with such foolish people.
 
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BigDaddy4

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If they didn't believe in the resurrection they would NOT be doing baptism for the dead. Baptism for the dead was being done by those who had the authority to do that work. Paul was a preacher, not a baptizer:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 1:14 - 17)

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
You clearly do not understand the context of 1 Cor 15:29.
 
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mmksparbud

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If they didn't believe in the resurrection they would NOT be doing baptism for the dead. Baptism for the dead was being done by those who had the authority to do that work. Paul was a preacher, not a baptizer:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 1:14 - 17)

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


That is just the point, your scripture reading is way faulty, for you do not read them according to God, the Jews language, Greek language or cultural practices of the day, you read them according to JS---and He had absolutely no knowledge of any of them! He wrote strictly from his own imagination and learning. And it is proof that what he says is not of God.
 
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He is the way

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That is just the point, your scripture reading is way faulty, for you do not read them according to God, the Jews language, Greek language or cultural practices of the day, you read them according to JS---and He had absolutely no knowledge of any of them! He wrote strictly from his own imagination and learning. And it is proof that what he says is not of God.
So you say.
 
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mmksparbud

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I believe in the Bible, but not your interpretation and additions to it.

Ah, but you got that backwards. It is JS whose interpretations and additions are unbelievable! And since you consider his interpretations to be more accurate than even the bible itself---you have nothing but a false prophet to rely on. As even you guys admit---he had no knowledge of Hebrew nor Greek nor understood their culture either. Which is why he got sooooo many things totally wrong. Prime example being God created every living creature before it was born on earth. That concept --- among MANY others, is nowhere in the bible.
 
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mmksparbud

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I didn't say he baptized no one, but that was not what he was called to do. Paul was called to preach the gospel.


So what? Did I miss something? What is important about that? Different apostles and disciples were called for different things.
 
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He is the way

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Ah, but you got that backwards. It is JS whose interpretations and additions are unbelievable! And since you consider his interpretations to be more accurate than even the bible itself---you have nothing but a false prophet to rely on. As even you guys admit---he had no knowledge of Hebrew nor Greek nor understood their culture either. Which is why he got sooooo many things totally wrong. Prime example being God created every living creature before it was born on earth. That concept --- among MANY others, is nowhere in the bible.
Yes it is:

(Old Testament | Genesis 2:1)

1 THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
 
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He is the way

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So what? Did I miss something? What is important about that? Different apostles and disciples were called for different things.
Yes and some were called to do baptism for the dead:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
 
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