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LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

He is the way

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Interesting that you post this passage in support of your position on hell, but completely disregard it when it comes to getting a 2nd chance in the afterlife. It is literally in complete disagreement with your doctrine. Selective Scripture much?? :scratch:
So you don't believe Hell is a place of torment, or you don't believe Hell is a place of teaching and learning? I say it is both. The rich man was tormented and he learned why. We know that Hell is not permanent:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 15)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Not everyone in Hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Some of them may be tormented for thousands of years until they have paid for their sins before they are released. Others may only spend a short time there.
 
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mmksparbud

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You are right, you have it so screwed up, so I will not say another word on this subject with you.

Well, isn't that your usual way of dealing with things? You tell them they have it all wrong but refuse to correct where they are wrong.
 
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mmksparbud

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I will say it just one more time. When the eternal living spirit enters the created mortal body, that created mortal body comes to life. When the eternal living spirit leaves that created mortal body, that created mortal body dies. The eternal living spirit continues to live, and will never die.

At the resurrection, the created mortal body and the eternal living spirit are united again, into a perfect, eternal, living body of flesh and bone and spirit. This will be your make-up throughout all eternity. A perfect resurrrected body of flesh and bone and spirit, just like Jesus had when he appeared to his apostles after his resurrection. Jesus was able to let them touch him, and he ate with them. Interesting huh?


Which means that the eternal living spirit was not alive before then. So where am I wrong in saying there are billions of dead spirits up there? It makes no sense. At the resurrection that dead body is made alive again by the return of the living breath from God. Before that, it was dead.
 
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BigDaddy4

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So you don't believe Hell is a place of torment, or you don't believe Hell is a place of teaching and learning? I say it is both. The rich man was tormented and he learned why. We know that Hell is not permanent:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 15)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Not everyone in Hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Some of them may be tormented for thousands of years until they have paid for their sins before they are released. Others may only spend a short time there.
The only thing you can learn in hell is that you don't want to be there. But buy then, it's too late, as the rich man found out. Any other belief about being able to change your mind after you die is un-Biblical. You can choose to believe what you want, though, and hope you're right. The Bible says otherwise.
 
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He is the way

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The only thing you can learn in hell is that you don't want to be there. But buy then, it's too late, as the rich man found out. Any other belief about being able to change your mind after you die is un-Biblical. You can choose to believe what you want, though, and hope you're right. The Bible says otherwise.
Why then is the gospel preached to the dead?:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:5 - 8)

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
 
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Peter1000

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Which means that the eternal living spirit was not alive before then. So where am I wrong in saying there are billions of dead spirits up there? It makes no sense. At the resurrection that dead body is made alive again by the return of the living breath from God. Before that, it was dead.
What is it about "eternal living spirit" that you do not get? The "eternal living spirit" has been alive forever, and will be alive for ever. There never has been a time that the "eternal living spirit" has been dead.
 
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mmksparbud

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What is it about "eternal living spirit" that you do not get? The "eternal living spirit" has been alive forever, and will be alive for ever. There never has been a time that the "eternal living spirit" has been dead.

But you keep saying that they lived when they got their body. The bible says they became a living soul when God breathed upon them. They were not alive until He gave them a body and breathed on them. If they were not alive without His breath, then they were dead. Without His breath there is no life. And if He had given them life before they got their body, that means they already had His breath of life and didn't need it again. Sorry, but you make no sense!!

You tell me your answer to how God could have created all the mortal whales on day 6, 5000 years ago, but we still have mortal whales swimming around today?

What the heck is that about?? It doesn't say God created all the creatures that have ever lived!!! He created every living species of animals and birds and so on---male and females of each---like Adam and Eve---male and female -- one of each. Then they got busy reproducing. It's not rocket science!! The different species were saved in the ark. and after the flood they too, started reproducing. So did the 8 human survivors. Again, you make no sense!!! If God already had made every living creature, including humans, as dead spirits, why make them able to reproduce??? Are you serious? That is what you believe that God created every living then, as spirits, then created bodies for them??? So animals and humans have not been reproducing, He has made physical bodies for every living thing and then gave them these spirits? So, these are not babies being made by us and the animals, what----they're a figment of our imagionati0ns? There are no eternal spirits anywhere!! God made Adam and Eve and He gave them the power to reproduce through sex!! Wow! What a concept! Babies use oxygen while in the womb, and then they breath it after being born, through the God given ability to reproduce through sex, that is what God has given for the passing on of our genetic code to our children. It is not the genetic code of some lifeless spirit who has no breath of life from God that enters into our bodies!!! Without oxygen -- we die. That is what the breath of God is, His life giving force through oxygen. No oxygen, no breath, no life!
 
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Peter1000

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But you keep saying that they lived when they got their body. The bible says they became a living soul when God breathed upon them. They were not alive until He gave them a body and breathed on them. If they were not alive without His breath, then they were dead. Without His breath there is no life. And if He had given them life before they got their body, that means they already had His breath of life and didn't need it again. Sorry, but you make no sense!!



What the heck is that about?? It doesn't say God created all the creatures that have ever lived!!! He created every living species of animals and birds and so on---male and females of each---like Adam and Eve---male and female -- one of each. Then they got busy reproducing. It's not rocket science!! The different species were saved in the ark. and after the flood they too, started reproducing. So did the 8 human survivors. Again, you make no sense!!! If God already had made every living creature, including humans, as dead spirits, why make them able to reproduce??? Are you serious? That is what you believe that God created every living then, as spirits, then created bodies for them??? So animals and humans have not been reproducing, He has made physical bodies for every living thing and then gave them these spirits? So, these are not babies being made by us and the animals, what----they're a figment of our imagionati0ns? There are no eternal spirits anywhere!! God made Adam and Eve and He gave them the power to reproduce through sex!! Wow! What a concept! Babies use oxygen while in the womb, and then they breath it after being born, through the God given ability to reproduce through sex, that is what God has given for the passing on of our genetic code to our children. It is not the genetic code of some lifeless spirit who has no breath of life from God that enters into our bodies!!! Without oxygen -- we die. That is what the breath of God is, His life giving force through oxygen. No oxygen, no breath, no life!

But you keep saying that they lived when they got their body. The bible says they became a living soul when God breathed upon them. They were not alive until He gave them a body and breathed on them. If they were not alive without His breath, then they were dead. Without His breath there is no life. And if He had given them life before they got their body, that means they already had His breath of life and didn't need it again. Sorry, but you make no sense!!



What the heck is that about?? It doesn't say God created all the creatures that have ever lived!!! He created every living species of animals and birds and so on---male and females of each---like Adam and Eve---male and female -- one of each. Then they got busy reproducing. It's not rocket science!! The different species were saved in the ark. and after the flood they too, started reproducing. So did the 8 human survivors. Again, you make no sense!!! If God already had made every living creature, including humans, as dead spirits, why make them able to reproduce??? Are you serious? That is what you believe that God created every living then, as spirits, then created bodies for them??? So animals and humans have not been reproducing, He has made physical bodies for every living thing and then gave them these spirits? So, these are not babies being made by us and the animals, what----they're a figment of our imagionati0ns? There are no eternal spirits anywhere!! God made Adam and Eve and He gave them the power to reproduce through sex!! Wow! What a concept! Babies use oxygen while in the womb, and then they breath it after being born, through the God given ability to reproduce through sex, that is what God has given for the passing on of our genetic code to our children. It is not the genetic code of some lifeless spirit who has no breath of life from God that enters into our bodies!!! Without oxygen -- we die. That is what the breath of God is, His life giving force through oxygen. No oxygen, no breath, no life!
To us, the "breath of life" = "the eternal living spirit". To show you this relationship I will refer you to:
Luke 8:54-55 King James Version (KJV)
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Here, Jesus does not use the term "breath of life", he uses the words
"her spirit". The little girls "spirit" came again into her lifeless body and the lifeless body came alive again. This demonstrates that it is the "eternal living spirit" that gives life to a mortal body. You can also call the "eternal living spirit" the "breath of life" they are synonymous.
 
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Peter1000

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mmksparbud says:
What the heck is that about?? It doesn't say God created all the creatures that have ever lived!!! He created every living species of animals and birds and so on---male and females of each---like Adam and Eve---male and female -- one of each. Then they got busy reproducing. It's not rocket science!! The different species were saved in the ark. and after the flood they too, started reproducing. So did the 8 human survivors. Again, you make no sense!!! If God already had made every living creature, including humans, as dead spirits, why make them able to reproduce??? Are you serious? That is what you believe that God created every living then, as spirits, then created bodies for them??? So animals and humans have not been reproducing, He has made physical bodies for every living thing and then gave them these spirits? So, these are not babies being made by us and the animals, what----they're a figment of our imagionati0ns? There are no eternal spirits anywhere!! God made Adam and Eve and He gave them the power to reproduce through sex!! Wow! What a concept! Babies use oxygen while in the womb, and then they breath it after being born, through the God given ability to reproduce through sex, that is what God has given for the passing on of our genetic code to our children. It is not the genetic code of some lifeless spirit who has no breath of life from God that enters into our bodies!!! Without oxygen -- we die. That is what the breath of God is, His life giving force through oxygen. No oxygen, no breath, no life!

Genesis 1:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Where are the words "one of each species" in this scripture?
 
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BigDaddy4

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Why then is the gospel preached to the dead?:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:5 - 8)

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
It's not. It says "was", past tense. Who these "them that are dead" are is not really clear, but keep in mind Hebrews 9:27 where people die once, then face judgement. That is clear there are no second chances (as also demonstrated by the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16). Earlier in 1 Peter 3:20 it talks about the people in the days of Noah, so this passage may be a continuation of that. And, keep also in mind Romans 1:20 where

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

This clearly says that people are without excuse for recognizing God since the creation of the world (side note: Notice it does not say "reorganization of the world"). So the 1 Peter 4 passage may also be referring to everyone who has ever lived. Lots of people lived pre-Abraham. Lots of people lived pre-Christ during the post-Abraham calling of the Israelites and were not part of that calling. Lots of people lived post-Christ who did not hear the message of Christ. Romans Chapter 2 addresses those who lived and died who were not under any law.

In other words, according to Scripture, God has given everyone who has ever lived a chance to recognize Him before they die and are without excuse. How that works is up to God to judge. No help needed from the lds, which makes your theology and practices useless.
 
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He is the way

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It's not. It says "was", past tense. Who these "them that are dead" are is not really clear, but keep in mind Hebrews 9:27 where people die once, then face judgement. That is clear there are no second chances (as also demonstrated by the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16). Earlier in 1 Peter 3:20 it talks about the people in the days of Noah, so this passage may be a continuation of that. And, keep also in mind Romans 1:20 where

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

This clearly says that people are without excuse for recognizing God since the creation of the world (side note: Notice it does not say "reorganization of the world"). So the 1 Peter 4 passage may also be referring to everyone who has ever lived. Lots of people lived pre-Abraham. Lots of people lived pre-Christ during the post-Abraham calling of the Israelites and were not part of that calling. Lots of people lived post-Christ who did not hear the message of Christ. Romans Chapter 2 addresses those who lived and died who were not under any law.

In other words, according to Scripture, God has given everyone who has ever lived a chance to recognize Him before they die and are without excuse. How that works is up to God to judge. No help needed from the lds, which makes your theology and practices useless.
Yes the gospel WAS preached to the dead and it still is so that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. God is just and gives everyone the same opportunity to have eternal life. I don't believe in an unjust God:

(New Testament | Revelation 15:3)

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Baptism is a necessary ordinance. What will happen to those who were NOT baptized? Will God save one child who is baptized and banish another child to Hell because that child was not baptized?
 
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mmksparbud

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To us, the "breath of life" = "the eternal living spirit". To show you this relationship I will refer you to:
Luke 8:54-55 King James Version (KJV)
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Here, Jesus does not use the term "breath of life", he uses the words
"her spirit". The little girls "spirit" came again into her lifeless body and the lifeless body came alive again. This demonstrates that it is the "eternal living spirit" that gives life to a mortal body. You can also call the "eternal living spirit" the "breath of life" they are synonymous.


However, you've been shown several times that spirit means breath. JS was not a Greek scholar.

In the New Testament the word for "soul" is psuche. Psuche is translated in the following ways:

heart 1
heartily (combined with ek) 1
life 40
make doubt (combined with airo) 1
mind 3
soul 58
you 1

The word for "spirit" in the Old Testament is either ruach or neshamah. Ruach is translated in the following ways:

air 1
anger 1
blast 4
breath 27
cool 1
courage 1
mind 6
quarters 1
side 6
Spirit or spirit 240
wind 94
vain 2

Neshamah is translated in the following ways:

blast 3
breath 17
inspiration 1
souls 1
spirit 2

The Greek word pnoe is used in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) for neshamah, but it is only used in the New Testament in Acts 2:2, where it is translated "wind," and in Acts 17:25, where it is translated "breath."

In the New Testament the word for "spirit" is pneuma. Pneuma is translated the following ways:

ghost 2
Ghost (with Holy) 90
life 1
spirit 151
Spirit 137
spiritual gift 1
spiritually 1
wind 1


Personifications?

One brief thought before we look at the verses: There are some verses that seem to use "soul" and "spirit" in ways that harmonize with the common concept of the nature of man. How can this be? Is the Bible contradicting itself?

Here is one suggestion: It was commonplace for the Bible writers to take parts of man’s being and personify them, give them attributes they did not in actuality possess. Perhaps sometimes they personified the "soul" and "spirit" as well.

The most familiar example of a part of a person being personified is the heart. The heart, simply an organ that pumps blood, is said to have qualities that the mind does have, but that the heart definitely does not have.

Another example which is not so familiar is the personification of the kidneys, called the "reins" (Ps. 7:9; 16:7; 26:2; 73:21; Prov. 23:16; Jer. 11:20; 12:2; 17:10; 20:12; Rev. 2:23). The kidneys seem to have been made the seat of the affections and emotions.

Another example is the use of the words for "bowels" (Ps. 40:8 (translated "heart"); Cant. 5:4; Is. 16:11; 63:15; Jer. 4:19; 31:20; Lam. 1:20; 2:11; Luke 1:78 (translated "tender"); 2 Cor 7:15 (translated "inward affection"); Php. 2:1; Col. 3:12; Phm. 1:7, 20; 1 Jn. 3:17).

In the light of these scriptures, the possibility that the Bible writers also occasionally personify the "soul" and "spirit" should be considered. In other words, the "soul" and the "spirit" may in some verses be given qualities that they do not in actuality possess.

The Soul and Spirit: Greek and Hebrew Word Studies (pickle-publishing.com)
 
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BigDaddy4

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Yes the gospel WAS preached to the dead and it still is so that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. God is just and gives everyone the same opportunity to have eternal life. I don't believe in an unjust God:

(New Testament | Revelation 15:3)

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Baptism is a necessary ordinance. What will happen to those who were NOT baptized? Will God save one child who is baptized and banish another child to Hell because that child was not baptized?
Believe what you want to believe, it's your prerogative. It just doesn't line up with what the Bible says. Baptism is not a necessary ordinance for salvation, especially for dead people. The people in the OT weren't baptized. Did God not save them because they weren't? Or somehow do they need mormonism to save them? Get real.:doh:
 
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He is the way

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Believe what you want to believe, it's your prerogative. It just doesn't line up with what the Bible says. Baptism is not a necessary ordinance for salvation, especially for dead people. The people in the OT weren't baptized. Did God not save them because they weren't? Or somehow do they need mormonism to save them? Get real.:doh:
Baptism does save us:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:21 - 22)

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

(New Testament | John 3:5 - 7)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Those who weren't baptized in this life will have that opportunity afforded to them by proxy:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
 
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BigDaddy4

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Baptism does save us:
No, it doesn't. That's part of your works theology. We've been over this a hundred (thousand?) times. For this to be true, it has to be applicable to all. The thief on the cross was not baptized. There are numerous situations where a person may accept Christ, but dies before being baptized.
Those who weren't baptized in this life will have that opportunity afforded to them by proxy:
This is your perpetual misunderstanding of Scripture, started by JS to satisfy his flock who had lost people before they were baptized. He couldn't explain God's grace to those who had children die and were not baptized, so he invented an alternative salvation method. False teachers and prophets do that to maintain their illusion of power.

As has been demonstrated by the story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar in Luke 16 and reaffirmed by Hebrews 9:27, you do not get a second chance once you die. So, more false teaching by your religion.
 
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Peter1000

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However, you've been shown several times that spirit means breath. JS was not a Greek scholar.

In the New Testament the word for "soul" is psuche. Psuche is translated in the following ways:

heart 1
heartily (combined with ek) 1
life 40
make doubt (combined with airo) 1
mind 3
soul 58
you 1

The word for "spirit" in the Old Testament is either ruach or neshamah. Ruach is translated in the following ways:

air 1
anger 1
blast 4
breath 27
cool 1
courage 1
mind 6
quarters 1
side 6
Spirit or spirit 240
wind 94
vain 2

Neshamah is translated in the following ways:

blast 3
breath 17
inspiration 1
souls 1
spirit 2

The Greek word pnoe is used in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) for neshamah, but it is only used in the New Testament in Acts 2:2, where it is translated "wind," and in Acts 17:25, where it is translated "breath."

In the New Testament the word for "spirit" is pneuma. Pneuma is translated the following ways:

ghost 2
Ghost (with Holy) 90
life 1
spirit 151
Spirit 137
spiritual gift 1
spiritually 1
wind 1


Personifications?

One brief thought before we look at the verses: There are some verses that seem to use "soul" and "spirit" in ways that harmonize with the common concept of the nature of man. How can this be? Is the Bible contradicting itself?

Here is one suggestion: It was commonplace for the Bible writers to take parts of man’s being and personify them, give them attributes they did not in actuality possess. Perhaps sometimes they personified the "soul" and "spirit" as well.

The most familiar example of a part of a person being personified is the heart. The heart, simply an organ that pumps blood, is said to have qualities that the mind does have, but that the heart definitely does not have.

Another example which is not so familiar is the personification of the kidneys, called the "reins" (Ps. 7:9; 16:7; 26:2; 73:21; Prov. 23:16; Jer. 11:20; 12:2; 17:10; 20:12; Rev. 2:23). The kidneys seem to have been made the seat of the affections and emotions.

Another example is the use of the words for "bowels" (Ps. 40:8 (translated "heart"); Cant. 5:4; Is. 16:11; 63:15; Jer. 4:19; 31:20; Lam. 1:20; 2:11; Luke 1:78 (translated "tender"); 2 Cor 7:15 (translated "inward affection"); Php. 2:1; Col. 3:12; Phm. 1:7, 20; 1 Jn. 3:17).

In the light of these scriptures, the possibility that the Bible writers also occasionally personify the "soul" and "spirit" should be considered. In other words, the "soul" and the "spirit" may in some verses be given qualities that they do not in actuality possess.

The Soul and Spirit: Greek and Hebrew Word Studies (pickle-publishing.com)
Your spacious and thorough study seems to suggest that if you take any word in the bible and look at it enough and study it through the scholarship of the Jews, and the Greeks, and the Latins etc., that you can use it to prove any agenda you wish?

I believe you are right. In fact you have proven the reason there are hundreds of Christian churches all teaching similar, but conflicting doctrines, because some scholar in church A, objected to a another scholar's work in his church A. The scholar who objected was working in Aramaic and came to a completely different conclusion than the other scholar, who was studying the same passage of scripture, but was working in Greek.

The discussion between the 2 great scholars began, and got very heated and the people in church A started to take sides in the dispute. Long story shor, the objecting scholar finally decided he could no longer commune with the other scholar, and so he and the people that sided with him, left church A and started church B. After thousands of years, you have hundreds of Christian churches, all teacing conflicting doctrines, on every subject, and with no true authority to adjudicate the issues, it continues today as it has in the past.

So there is no secret that I can believe one doctrine about our "spirit", and you can believe a completely different doctrine about our "spirit". We will just have to agree again to disagree.

Great study though, I was impressed with your scholarship.
 
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Peter1000

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No, it doesn't. That's part of your works theology. We've been over this a hundred (thousand?) times. For this to be true, it has to be applicable to all. The thief on the cross was not baptized. There are numerous situations where a person may accept Christ, but dies before being baptized.

This is your perpetual misunderstanding of Scripture, started by JS to satisfy his flock who had lost people before they were baptized. He couldn't explain God's grace to those who had children die and were not baptized, so he invented an alternative salvation method. False teachers and prophets do that to maintain their illusion of power.

As has been demonstrated by the story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar in Luke 16 and reaffirmed by Hebrews 9:27, you do not get a second chance once you die. So, more false teaching by your religion.
Why is baptism such an important part of the bible, if it is unnecessary to be saved. Why does Jesus in his last remarks on earth tell his apostles to go to the whole world and teach and baptize people in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost?

If it is so unimportant, why all the baptizing in the NT.

Is it possible that the slippery slope started just after the apostles were gone, when the Didache says that it is OK to baptize by pouring water over ones head if you are in a place that has little water? Is it possible to conserve water even more, a waiver was made that it was OK to dip your fingers in the water bowl and sprinkle the head once instead of pouring water over the head 3 times.

Is it possible that churches started traditions that you could only be baptized at Christmas and Easter? Is it possible that scholars and bishops started to discuss the details of baptism and got intwined into heated discussions that lead to schism and a watering down of the whole baptism process, even to the point of, "you don't even truly need to be baptized". It is only an outward sign and dunking yourself in water certainly does not save you.

Oh, yes it does, shouted the ana-Baptists. No, it doesn't shouted the Lutherans. Yes, it does shouted the Baptists, and in this particular way. No, it doesn't shouted any one of hundreds of born again Christian sects.
Yes it does said the Catholics, but it can be done any one of several different ways. No, it doesn't says the Presbyterians, you only have to be baptized of the spirit, but dunking you in water is not necessary to be saved.

And so on and on it goes. You say baptism does not save. I say it is one ordinance that needs to be done in order to be saved, for the living and the dead. There is an interesting side note to this baptism for the dead. Every time I go down into the water to do a proxy baptism, it takes me back to my baptism and helps me remember the covenants that I made at that time to God, and helps keep me on the right track to living in his kingdom after this life.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Why is baptism such an important part of the bible, if it is unnecessary to be saved. Why does Jesus in his last remarks on earth tell his apostles to go to the whole world and teach and baptize people in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost?

If it is so unimportant, why all the baptizing in the NT.
Baptism is an outward expression of an inward decision to come to faith in Jesus Christ. It's the decision to come to Christ that is important, as God judges the heart. The decision to be baptized was a differentiator from among the Jews (from which many early NT believers came from) and various pagan religions at the time. And to this day, it is still the public demonstration of that inward decision to follow Christ. You focus on the public demonstration, while God focuses on the inward decision.

And the dead cannot be saved if they were not already before they died. Any such belief is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Obviously, you and your religion disagree with what the Bible teaches. Shouldn't that tell you something?

Every time you do a proxy baptism, you are just getting wet for no reason.
 
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He is the way

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No, it doesn't. That's part of your works theology. We've been over this a hundred (thousand?) times. For this to be true, it has to be applicable to all. The thief on the cross was not baptized. There are numerous situations where a person may accept Christ, but dies before being baptized.
What does "whereunto even baptism doth also now save us" mean to you? Does it mean the opposite of what it says? What does "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." mean to you? Does that also mean the opposite of what it says? The Bible agrees with work theology, besides the thief went to Paradise, that is not heaven:
Matt 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matt 7: 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt. 25: 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

John 3: 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 9: 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14: 15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Acts 10: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 Cor. 3: 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

2 Cor. 5: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Gal. 6: 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Philip. 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Tim. 3: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 3: 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Heb. 13: 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1: 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 4: 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 Pet. 1: 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

1 Jn. 3: 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Rev. 2: 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev. 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
 
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He is the way

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And the dead cannot be saved if they were not already before they died. Any such belief is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Obviously, you and your religion disagree with what the Bible teaches. Shouldn't that tell you something?
Every time you do a proxy baptism, you are just getting wet for no reason.
I suppose I will just have to agree with the Bible about proxy baptism.
 
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