Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Douggg

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Not so. And you are a Dispy.
Not I am not. And it is against the forum rules to call someone a dispensationalist when that person has said he is not.

Dispensationalism, as is covenant and new covenant theology, is a man-made system to understand the bible by dividing it up into "dispensations". I don't use either man-made systems to understand the bible.

Have your war with dispensationalists, but don't lay it on my doorstep.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Didn't we go over that list before in a previous post?

I am anytime rapture view. What anytime rapture teachers are you referring to?


View attachment 290170

Yes. You avoided the questions then and you avoided them again. That is because your doctrine has no support in Ezekiel 39. You have no proof-text. Why not admit it? You force your false teaching on the sacred text. No one in their right mind would see Pretrib in Ezekiel 39. There is no teaching on a rapture of the church followed by a 7-year trib followed by a 3rd coming of Christ there (or anywhere in Scripture). You know that! Pretrib was invented by the Jesuits and has no basis in Scripture. Your avoidance and that of all the Pretribbers on this thread reinforces what we have been alleging. This is why most of us abandoned this error.

All you have is your faulty charts. You have zero Scripture.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Not I am not. And it is against the forum rules to call someone a dispensationalist when that person has said he is not.

Dispensationalism, as is covenant and new covenant theology, is a man-made system to understand the bible by dividing it up into "dispensations". I don't use either man-made systems to understand the bible.

Have your war with dispensationalists, but don't lay it on my doorstep.

Do you believe the kingdom of heaven was postponed until a future 7 years trib or a future millennium?
 
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sovereigngrace

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It is not going good for Pretrib on this thread. It is getting a bit of a rout, and Pretribbers have nothing of Scripture to bring to the table, only flawed and faulty charts that do not line up with Scripture.

Your view of Revelation is messed up. Have you or any Pretrib bothered to even question what you have been taught?

Dispensationalist Pretrib writers wrongly argue that Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 4-19 is a harmonious chronological 7-year tribulation period. However, there isn’t one single reference to a seven-year tribulation in the book of Revelation as there also isn’t in the whole of the New Testament. In fact, there is only one reference to the term seven-years in the New Testament in Luke 2:36. It describes “Anna” living with her “husband seven years from her virginity.” No other reference!!! When Pretribber are pressed they quote Daniel 9 which (1) is an historic account that has already been fulfilled, (2) which related to Messiah’s first Coming and which makes no reference to a supposed rapture and a third Coming of Christ.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

This is calculated by:

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

There are five 3 ½ years:

42 months from Rev 11:2 (temple trampled by Gentiles).
1260 days from Rev 11:3 (two witnesses prophesy).
1260 days from Rev 12:6 (woman flees into the wilderness).
Times, time, and half a time from Rev 12:14 (woman nourished in the wilderness).
42 months from Rev 13:5 (power given to the beast)

42months + 1260days + 1260days + times, time, and half a time (assuming 3 ½ years interpretation) + 42 months = A 17.5 year period in Revelation

It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text teaching it exposes its error.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Coming from someone who's screen-name is "Spiritual Jew".
What do you mean by this? Do you have a problem with my screen name?

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

He is not a spiritual Jew who is a Jew outwardly as evidenced by circumcision. He is a spiritual Jew who is a Jew inwardly as evidenced by being circumcised of the heart, in the spirit.

All believers are spiritual Jews. It's sad that you don't embrace this because of your obsession with natural, unbelieving Jews.

The following passages indicate that all believers are circumcised of the heart, in the spirit and that satisfies the requirements for being a Jew inwardly as described in Romans 2:29.

Philippians 3:3 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Although I am not a dispensationalist, I think you have misrepresented what they believe.

I am a futurist though.
Please tell me how you differ from dispensationalists other than believing that the rapture is not necessarily pre-trib (but you agree with them that it is not post-trib)? You sure seem to believe all the same things they do besides that.
 
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BABerean2

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Spiritual Jew

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Why do you think that Satan hasn't been cast out of heaven yet? He was cast out when Jesus ascended there. Do you actually think that Satan accuses believers before God day and night still today? No way! How could he when our sins are all forgiven? What can he accuse us of? Have you never read this:

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who can accuse us before God? No one, including Satan. Satan was cast out of heaven long ago and has not been able to accuse believers before God for a long time. He would have to get through Jesus to come before God to accuse us and that isn't happening.

Your understanding of the timing of Revelation 12 is completely off base because of your lack of understanding of what Christ's death, resurrection and ascension did to Satan.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It is not going good for Pretrib on this thread. It is getting a bit of a rout, and Pretribbers have nothing of Scripture to bring to the table, only flawed and faulty charts that do not line up with Scripture.
Pre-trib randomly pieces together unrelated scriptures like Ezekiel 39, Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:32-51, Matthew 25:1-13 and forms a convoluted narrative out of it. It's the opposite of an airtight doctrine with clear scriptural corroboration.

Your view of Revelation is messed up. Have you or any Pretrib bothered to even question what you have been taught?

Dispensationalist Pretrib writers wrongly argue that Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 4-19 is a harmonious chronological 7-year tribulation period.
It's ironic that they like to pride themselves on interpreting scriptural literally unless it is clearly spelled out that it's not literal and, yet, look at what they do with Revelation 4:1. They turn a verse that describes one person being spiritually caught up to be given a vision of heaven into the entire church being bodily caught up to heaven. That's about as non-literal as you can get. They are very inconsistent with their random methods of interpretation.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It is not going good for Pretrib on this thread. It is getting a bit of a rout, and Pretribbers have nothing of Scripture to bring to the table, only flawed and faulty charts that do not line up with Scripture.

Your view of Revelation is messed up. Have you or any Pretrib bothered to even question what you have been taught?

Dispensationalist Pretrib writers wrongly argue that Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 4-19 is a harmonious chronological 7-year tribulation period. However, there isn’t one single reference to a seven-year tribulation in the book of Revelation as there also isn’t in the whole of the New Testament. In fact, there is only one reference to the term seven-years in the New Testament in Luke 2:36. It describes “Anna” living with her “husband seven years from her virginity.” No other reference!!! When Pretribber are pressed they quote Daniel 9 which (1) is an historic account that has already been fulfilled, (2) which related to Messiah’s first Coming and which makes no reference to a supposed rapture and a third Coming of Christ.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

This is calculated by:

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

There are five 3 ½ years:

42 months from Rev 11:2 (temple trampled by Gentiles).
1260 days from Rev 11:3 (two witnesses prophesy).
1260 days from Rev 12:6 (woman flees into the wilderness).
Times, time, and half a time from Rev 12:14 (woman nourished in the wilderness).
42 months from Rev 13:5 (power given to the beast)

42months + 1260days + 1260days + times, time, and half a time (assuming 3 ½ years interpretation) + 42 months = A 17.5 year period in Revelation

It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text teaching it exposes its error.
All you need to do is pick two of those five 3 1/2 year time periods and ignore the others and then you have your 7 year tribulation period. Very simple. And, of course, you just need to ignore those other shorter time periods, also, and then you are able to still end up with a 7 year tribulation time period. Clear as mud.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Pre-trib randomly pieces together unrelated scriptures like Ezekiel 39, Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:32-51, Matthew 25:1-13 and forms a convoluted narrative out of it. It's the opposite of an airtight doctrine with clear scriptural corroboration.

It's ironic that they like to pride themselves on interpreting scriptural literally unless it is clearly spelled out that it's not literal and, yet, look at what they do with Revelation 4:1. They turn a verse that describes one person being spiritually caught up to be given a vision of heaven into the entire church being bodily caught up to heaven. That's about as non-literal as you can get. They are very inconsistent with their random methods of interpretation.

Totally true bro.
 
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sovereigngrace

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All you need to do is pick two of those five 3 1/2 year time periods and ignore the others and then you have your 7 year tribulation period. Very simple. And, of course, you just need to ignore those other shorter time periods, also, and then you are able to still end up with a 7 year tribulation time period. Clear as mud.

It is manipulating the text to support your own prejudiced theological beliefs.
 
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Douggg

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Do you believe the kingdom of heaven was postponed until a future 7 years trib or a future millennium?
I believe that when Jesus returns in the days of the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, He will bring the kingdom of heaven, as the the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth over the nations.
 
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Douggg

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Dispensationalist Pretrib writers wrongly argue that Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 4-19 is a harmonious chronological 7-year tribulation period. However, there isn’t one single reference to a seven-year tribulation in the book of Revelation as there also isn’t in the whole of the New Testament.
What you are supposed to do is take the events and corresponding timeframes and fit them into the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times. Represent by the first chart. The second chart, fitting that framework, is the progression of the great opposer to Jesus. The third chart, fitting that framework, is the detailed critical path flow of events to take place in the 7 years.

upload_2020-12-7_18-50-21.jpeg


upload_2020-12-7_18-51-1.jpeg



upload_2020-12-7_18-51-46.jpeg
 
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jeffweedaman

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Why do you think that Satan hasn't been cast out of heaven yet? He was cast out when Jesus ascended there. Do you actually think that Satan accuses believers before God day and night still today? No way! How could he when our sins are all forgiven? What can he accuse us of? Have you never read this:

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who can accuse us before God? No one, including Satan. Satan was cast out of heaven long ago and has not been able to accuse believers before God for a long time. He would have to get through Jesus to come before God to accuse us and that isn't happening.

Your understanding of the timing of Revelation 12 is completely off base because of your lack of understanding of what Christ's death, resurrection and ascension did to Satan.


Wonderfully explained.

Jesus has take our sins away. satan is wasting his time accusing us of anything. He now has no legitimate reason to come before God in heaven. Nothing left for them to talk about as Jesus has taken the keys of death away from him.
 
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Douggg

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Totally true bro.
Why don't you two provide your chart of the rapture timing window. Here is the timing chart for the Anytime Rapture View. And below the pre-trib timing chart.

upload_2020-12-7_18-59-24.jpeg



upload_2020-12-7_19-0-28.jpeg
 
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Timtofly

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I meant that there won't be a planet that suddenly stops revolving around the sun at some point in the future and then changes course and travels towards earth as that person was saying.
It would not be one of the known planets. It would come from another star system.

Think of it as us sending a rocket into space. This is a planet sent from outside of our solar system to intersect with the earth.
 
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Timtofly

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That isn't taught anywhere in scripture. You are constantly making claims that aren't taught anywhere in scripture. Why? Please stop.
Angels as demons is not either. Can you please stop calling them spirits? It is taught indirectly even more so than the 1,000 years in Revelation 20, yet you seem to spiritualize that. David in the Psalm speaks about fleeing from God’s presence. We are separated from our spirit, and no where does it say a spirit is physically dead. A spiritually dead spirit is a demon. No more light, but filled with darkness. Demonology is part of the occult, and God commands us not to deal with the occult. That is why it is not dealt with directly in Scripture. Don't take my word for it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I believe that when Jesus returns in the days of the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, He will bring the kingdom of heaven, as the the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth over the nations.

Then you are a Dispy. Stop denying the obvious.
 
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